being righteous, living righteously

Is there a difference between being righteous - our legal status before God - and living righteously - our daily conduct? 

Many within the church confuse these and mix them together. Though they are clearly connected, they are completely distinct. 

Even though God grants us total righteousness (our perfect legal standing) before Him in Christ, he still desires us to ¹live righteously. Many, when they first understand righteousness is a gift conclude how we live no longer matters.

But it is only through ¹righteous living we are most aligned and in tune with God ⁵practically. We love others as we are designed to, and best put God on display - i.e. honor and glorify Him - through loving actions toward others. 

But these actions do not save us or make us more acceptical to God. 

He designed us to be aligned with his will in our everyday conduct, so we might:

1. experience more of Him and His love (John 14:21,23; 15:9-10) 

2. best honor and glorify Him before others. 

3. Advance His ⁵kingdom on earth as it is in heaven.

These are the desired outcomes of the good standing He has fully secured for us and assigned to us in Christ. 

God grants (gifts) us a right legal standing, so we might live right. We don't live right to enhance our legal standing with Him (this has already been perfectly settled in and by Christ), but so we might partake of Him more fully and reflect Him more clearly in our everyday lives. 

He wants us to live righteously so we might more fully participate in His love, life, and joy, and pass it on to others more effectively. 

Why is this important? To make is more acceptable to God? No!

This brings more attention (honor) to Him, so others might be drawn to Him through us and thereby also find in Him fullness of life by means of our righteous conduct. This advances and establishes His righteous ⁵reign on earth. The very thing Christ taught his disciples to pray for.

"Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." - Matt 6:10 

The idea of being made right so we would live right is expressed in several places in scripture, but most often and clearly in Paul's letter to the Romans.

‭‭Romans 6:4 ESV‬‬

We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

‭‭Romans 7:4 ESV‬‬

Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. 

"There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (i.e. we are perfectly right with God in Christ). For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us..." - Rom ‭8:1‭-‬5‬

Each of the above 3 passages shows that the desired outcome of God making us right with Him (i.e., righteous before Him legally) is that we might live righteously. 

In fact, in several of Paul's letters (Ephesians, Colossians, ³Hebrews and Romans) the first part of these letters lays out what God has done for us regarding our unrighteous status - i.e. He has made us righteous in and through Christ.  The remaining part of each letter addresses how we are to conduct our lives in light of this and in response to it.

This is clearest in the entire book of Romans, where the first 11 chapters elaborate on our alienation from God and what He has done to restore us in Christ - i.e., the explanation of the good news ( the gospel - Rom 1:16 ). Then, from chapter 12 on, it shifts to how we conduct ourselves in light of this good news. 

I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, (i.e. in light of what I have said up to this point regarding our dilemma and God's solution) to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable (well pleasing) to God, which is your spiritual worship. Rom 12:1

What is the appropriate response to Christ sacrificing His life to restore us back to His Father? Our becoming a living sacrifice in our everyday lives!

The ending phrase "spiritual worship" indicates this is a heartfelt response, not a rigid duty or legal requirement. 

A response to what? To God providing the righteousness, we must have to be in good standing with the Father, by assigning Christ's perfect standing with the Father to us.

Did only Paul address this? No, Peter, James, and John did as well.

"When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten, but continued entrusting himself to him who judges justly. He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness i.e. in our everyday conduct..." - 1 Pet 2:23-24

This connection of our righteous status resulting in righteous conduct in our every day lives by multiple writers isn't a coincidence. Righteous living must always flow out of our right status with God (because we could never meet the requirements of living a perfectly righteous life unaided) i.e., righteous living will and must always flow out of a righteous standing before God. If it does not - if there is no fruit of righteous living - the scriptures call us to make sure we are truly His child. This is clearly implied and stated explicitly in the above and other passages. So much so that scripture tells us if how we live has not changed since we came to Christ, we need to be sure we truly know Him. 

For a further discussion on being right vs living right click here 

For a discussion on "working out" our salvation click here.

What is the good news? click here

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Footnotes: 

¹What exactly is righteous living or living righteously? When our conduct is perfectly aligned with God's ⁴design and will.

And what is God's design (will) for us and all creation? That in everything we do and say we honor and glorify him. And in doing so, we also experience our greatest significance - glory. 

And how do we best honor and glorify him? By loving Him with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength and our neighbors as ourselves. Love (i.e. relationship) is the driving force of righteous conduct. Carrying out these commandments or living righteously - i.e. treating others as we wish to be treated - is the result. 

God's love for us is first, and our responding back to him in love is the result. We will not value or love God above all others until we first grasp and experience his value of us and love for us. 

God is the initiator and source of love. If we are not plugged into Him (His infinite love for us) and thereby drawing strength from Him, we can never be loving as we were designed to be. When we see and experience his love, we "light up," come to life, bear fruit, and become the true bearers of His image as we were created to be.  

God is the power supply, we are the conduits. He is the treasure, we are jars of clay. He is the vine, we are the branches.

Which comes first, our valuing and loving Him or Him valuing and loving us? We love him because he first loved us.

³There is good reason to believe Paul dictated the book of Hebrews to Luke, who wrote it. The way the letter flows and unfolds - the thorough knowledge of the OT - is characteristic of other letters by Paul (a well-studied Jewish Pharisee), not someone who is a Greek Gentile such as Luke. 

But the style and elegance of the Greek used in the book is indicative of Luke also seen in Acts and Lukes gospel. So some suggest Hebrews was a collaboration between Paul and Luke. 

There are other reasons some believe Paul dictated it. Primarily because, as far as we know, all but one of Paul's letters (including Hebrews) was dictated. Possibly because of poor eyesight from his being blinded by beholding Christ on the road to Damascus.

Also Luke was a highly educated Greek national and medical doctor, fluent in "high" Greek. 

Hebrews was written with grammatical precision, using several words unique to the book of Hebrews. This was uncharacteristic of Paul's other letters but similar to the gospel of Luke. For these reasons, some think Paul didn't write it but dictated it to Luke. Explaining why it has characteristics of both Paul and Luke. The fact that he considered himself the apostle to the Gentile adds even more credibility to this view. 

It is also believed Paul deliberately did not identify as the author since he was considered the apostle to the Gentiles and not looked upon favorably by the Judaizers from Jewish circles within the church. 

Some suggest Paul deliberately left his name off to avoid any resistance to the letters' reception and wide circulation within the Jewish community at large. After all, why would the apostle to the Gentiles be writing a letter to Hebrews?  

But Paul's love for his own people was clearly expressed in Romans chapter 9. Knowing this, it would make perfect sense that he still had an intense desire to reach his people even though God had called him to be an apostle to the Gentiles. 

⁴this is given either as a direct order in writing, verbally, and by Christ's example - all of which are recorded in scripture.

⁵and advance His kingdom most. Our actions matter, either advancing or hindering God's kingdom. 

Why does God allow evil

The age old question is if God is good why does He ¹allow evil and suffering to continue?

But in the most important and ultimate sense He doesn't (and didn't). One day the scales of justice will be completely balanced. 

But what about now? 

At the very outset of our turning away from God, He reached out to us with an immediate - though temporary - solution. 

He also promised and eventually ²provided the permanent and ultimate solution to evil - along with all its fallout - in the most amazing and unexpected way. A way available to anyone who receives it. Not necessarily the solution ³we would prefer but in a way that surfaces and exposes our core problem and why suffering remains - i.e. our distrust of the Creator. This is also the central truth the Book of Job seeks to reveal to us.

Christs suffering clearly indicates God is not indifferent to our pain nor has He abandoned us or lost control by allowing it to continue. Pain and suffering continue for good reason - but only for now. Our distrust of God must be ⁹fully exposed, with all its fallout, so we might recognize its true destructive nature and abandon it (the exact opposite of our abandoning God in Eden) and more fully enter into and participate in the glory of God - which is our greatest good and highest joy.

In short, God is using evil for good. If he wasn't, it would be ⁴removed. One day, when it has accomplished its intended purpose it will be. But not before then.  

So for now suffering remains for good reason and a good purpose. But we can only benefit fully from it when we trust God in this. The greater our trust the greater our gain i.e. evil is always used for good if and when we trust His good and loving intentions in allowing it to remain. If we do not trust Him, suffering will only embitter and eventually destroy us. 

This may not be what we want or like to hear but that is because we don't see what God fully sees and knows is ultimately for the greatest good - our greatest good. 

In this life, God uses what was meant (by the destroyer - satan) for our harm and destruction (i.e. evil) and turns it on its head. He "redeems" evil if you will, and uses it to ultimately advance us not destroy or harm us. But only if we trust Him and this process.

Pain and suffering are now a primary (maybe the primary) means of turning us back to God when we aren't pursuing Him or drawing those who are pursuing Him even closer.

Our agenda and wisdom don't match God's, whose wisdom and intent are perfect. Ours is not. Again our distrust of God is our biggest issue (not our pain) and He addressed it - and is addressing it - perfectly through all He allows us to go through.

If and when we choose to remain in rebellious unbelief and defiant distrust of God, suffering will overcome and embitter us (experiencing anger when we encounter pain is always a clue we do not trust Him and still may ultimately have a bone to pick with God. This is the real issue...not the "mystery" of why we suffer). 

Our biggest challenge is not suffering but remaining in our unbelief. This ultimately leads to our permanent ⁴separation from God (whereas our present separation, along with all the suffering it brings, is only temporary once we turn back to Him). But if and when we turn to Him we are told (and over time come to realize) that God uses suffering (evil) for the good of those who trust and love Him (if not in our immediate circumstances, in our ultimate existence in eternity). Otherwise, if we refuse to trust Him, pain will embitter and ultimately destroy us. It is the path to perpetual pain.

So in the most important and ultimate sense evil has been dismantled and can no longer destroy us in the way our adversary intended, as long as we trust our Creator. Why?

1. The day is coming - and has already been put into motion - when pain and death will be done away with completely. The resurrection of Christ is our proof. His resurrection was the first fruits of what is to come. Life ultimately wins over pain, suffering, and death. If we trust Him we too will ultimately rise one day and overcome death just as he did.

2. The presence of evil is (for now) a means to turn us back to God and draw us closer to Him.

3. The presence of evil provides a means and opportunity for us to advance spiritually. We actually gain when, ⁸by faith, we overcome evil and suffering - just as Christ did when He, on our behalf, overcame it. This is the exact opposite of what we are naturally inclined to believe and what our adversary intends. Because of our pain, we are given an opportunity to become more like Christ if we receive it by faith i.e. believe that God is accomplishing our ultimate good not harm, through our pain.

In the most significant and ultimate sense evil and suffering have not only been forever ⁵disarmed and more than defeated but are also being used for the very opposite of what we think i.e. good. He not only put into motion the eventual and complete removal of all pain one day but until that day arrives he "redeems" and uses it for the good of those who love and trust Him. 

How did God accomplish this?

When Christ became a man and fully embraced the harm, damage, and hurt (pain, evil) we cause each other - and let it kill him (instead of us) - He overcame death, evil, and suffering by 1st embracing it fully until it killed Him and then forever disarmed it when he ⁶came back to life. As a result, if we believe and accept all that Christ did, we too ⁷will overcome the pain, suffering, and death we bring (brought) into the world and raise to that very same life that Christ rose to - i.e. a life of bliss and glory with the Father of life, love, and all things. 

We are not only "victims" of pain but the perpetrators (cause) of pain. But Christ took care of all of it by submitting to it until it killed Him and then came back to life and declared victory over death and pain forever. 

Christ's ⁵resurrection changed how we look at and deal with pain and suffering. Evil and death did (does) not have the final word, life did (does) because of Christ! For this, He deserves (and will receive) our highest praise and gratitude forever and ever, amen!

Because of what Christ did on our behalf we can no longer question whether God is good. In and by Christ's incarnation, death, and resurrection God proved and established His goodness beyond question. In and through Christ good and evil met and good swallowed up evil and overcame it.

Christ fully embraced all aspects of our pain - physical, emotional, and spiritual - by His obedience unto death. Now He offers victory over death via His resurrection, so we don't have to die but be ultimately will be delivered from it. The offer of complete and ultimate freedom from pain is available to all who receive it. 

All of this was done for us, as well as for the rest of creation. Evil, pain, and death were (and are) not only permanently defeated - at the very moment Christ came back to life - it is now being used to reverse our separation from God practically. He first did this legally and continues to do this in our day-to-day walk - as we put our trust in Him. Because of Christ, the pain will eventually be eliminated altogether.

⁸Christ completely disarmed evil and dismantled its ultimate destructive effect - death - forever. Now he offers a life of infinite bliss to any who will accept His offer of restoration to Him and eventually complete freedom from pain and death forever.

Does this answer the question of why God allows evil to continue? Maybe not for many. But it can give us a helpful glimpse into the answer if we let it. 

For a further discussion of how God uses evil for our good click here...and here.

The greater the evil the greater the opportunity for healing/grace click here.

For a discussion on the key lesson from the book of Job click here.

For a further discussion on the value of paradox click here.

For a further discussion of how big is God exactly click here

For a discussion of how pain can help us see Christ's love click here

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¹God did not cause us to rebel or cause our brokenness or the pain and all the suffering in the world that followed. The world is broken because we (like Adam and Eve, our original ancestors) continue to choose to distrust God - i.e. God didn't break us or the rest of creation, we disconnected and broke (short-circuited) that connection when we turned away from God. 

If God provides us a warm house filled with light - and tells us we are safe if we remain inside - yet we step outside into the cold dark night, guess who moved? A hint...it wasn't God.

God loves and values our ability to choose to such a great extent that he gave us the choice and freedom to rebel and reject Him - because choice is a key part of us being like God and partaking of Him to the greatest extent possible - ⁹without our actually being God (which we can never be by virtue of being created). The consequences of our choice are far less significant to God than our ability to freely make them.

Some deny the existence of evil but that is only because of how evil is commonly defined. To get an accurate definition we must go to the source, the Bible itself. How does it define evil (and good)?

The following definitions are found in the original Hebrew. 

Emphasis my own:

Evil - H7451b  רַע - ra  (948c); from the same as H7455; evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity: — adversity (7), calamity (4), disaster (2), evil (94), harm (2), harmful (1), hurt (1), ruin (3), surely (1), trouble (2), unpleasant (1), wickedly (1), wickedness (1).

H7455  רע - rôa‛BDB (Brown-Driver-Briggs') Definition:1) badness, evil 1a) badness, bad quality 1b) wilfulness 1c) evil, badness (ethical) 1d) sadness

Good - H2896b  טוֹב - tob  (375a); from H2895; a good thing, benefit, welfare: — enjoy *(1), good (66), good thing (3), good things (2), goodness (1), graciously (1), happiness (1), happy (1), pleasant (1), prosperity (8), richer (1), well (1), what is good (1), what is good (4).

H2895  טוֹב - tob (373b); a prim. root; to be pleasing or good: — any (1), did well (2), done well (1), fair (1), go well (1), good (1), good (5), high (1), merry (3), please (2), pleased *(2), pleases (4), pleases *(2), pleasing (1), well (8), well-off (1). 

We could sum these definitions up as follows:

Good - God himself and all the benefits, provision, and pleasure that come in knowing him and being in His loving presence, and being known and fully embraced by Him.

Evil - Injury or harm (e.g. death) that comes to us due to the absence of God (because of our turning away from Him in rebellious distrust) and all the good things he provides. 

Before man's rebellion, the Bible doesn't say they did not know good, it says they did not know good and evil i.e. good in contrast to or compared to evil. We can only fully understand and appreciate goodness when it is absent, just like we can only fully appreciate light and warmth when things are cold and dark.

Are we evil? For a discussion click here.

²The solution is only God can restore us, we can't restore (save) ourselves. And the way he does this requires us to trust Him and His provision. 

This was established at the very outset of mankind's rebellion when God provided Adam and Eve with animal skins to cover their shame, resulting in the death of another living creature (the consequences of our rebellion and God's warning of death). 

The ultimate provision was also promised at that time in the child (seed) of the women i.e. a living being after the image of man as well as God (i.e. the Son of God and man - Jesus) would be the ultimate sacrifice leading to the eventual end of all pain and destruction for any who trust in God's provision.

The sacrifice of a living being for the rebellion of another seems severe and barbaric but this only indicates our lack of understanding of the severe nature of that rebellion and the severe harm it causes. Our rebellion is destructive with very real and severe consequences. It causes harm, destruction, and death. God doesn't cause death (we do). He provided the solution for death i.e. the death of someone other than us who took the consequences for our destructive choices and their resulting conduct.

God warned the day we rebelled we would die. Death was simply the natural outcome of our disconnecting from life i.e. our Creator, who is the very cause and source of life, not death. The natural or organic (and reasonable) result of cutting ourselves off from the source of life is death. When God said the day we eat we would surely die was not a statement of judgment but the simple reality that to disconnect from life results in the opposite i.e. death.

Once we rebelled the damage had been done. The only option was for something else to die in our place for the consequences of our disconnecting from the Source of life if we were to be restored and avoid our own death. 

The harm and destruction caused by our rebellion matter and could not be ignored or pretended not to matter. Someone or something had to suffer the destructive consequences of our rebellious distrust of God if we were to escape those consequences ourselves. 

Sacrificing another for our benefit (so we wouldn't have to reap the consequences of our distrust) isn't barbaric it is an act of severe mercy. What is destructive, evil, and barbaric is our rebellion, not the sacrifice made to spare and rescue us from its consequences i.e. our distrust. The evil, pain, and suffering in the world are the consequence of our rebellion and a clear indication of how severe our rebellion is. 

³We'd prefer He simply removed evil altogether so we can go about our life uninterrupted as long as and only if it doesn't involve God i.e. require us to trust Him. We love and embrace the benefits of creation. We simply do not want to trust the Creator. Ironic when you think about it. How can we justly accept and love the good benefits that someone offers yet reject them?

We prefer being our own god, only without the consequences. We don't want God, we only want relief. We attempt to gain that by using the good gifts of creation without fully acknowledging the Creator - the loving Giver of those gifts. To use an old idiom and analogy, we want to have our cake and eat it too.

If God is good why does He allow evil, is the wrong question. Why? It is based on the following wrong assumptions.

1. God must be the ¹cause of evil (and is therefore evil himself).

2. He doesn't know what He is doing by allowing it to happen in the first place (and by giving us the ability to choose) or allowing it to continue (this assumes we are wiser than the Source of all knowledge and wisdom... a little arrogant on our part wouldn't you agree?).

3. We have no responsibility (or choice) for the ongoing evil, pain, and suffering in the world i.e. our rebellious distrust of God isn't the actual problem, God is i.e. evils existence is not our fault or problem to solve, it's His - or so we think. 

But He didn't provide the ultimate solution to our pain because He had to, but because He choose to i.e. out of love, not obligation.

These assumptions reveal the true condition of our heart i.e. an arrogant heart that does not trust or believe God is good, wise, and loving - as He claims (and proved through Christ) - in all he does or allows. We simply don't believe we need Him.

God is addressing evil but not in the way we prefer, expect, or demand. He's addressing evil not by removing it from our world (at least for now) but by removing it from our individual hearts - internally vs externally - one person and step at a time, so we will increasingly approach the world as we were originally designed to - full of love - His love. And this so the world might progressively be healed and become more whole again through us, to the glory of God, not just ours.

We play(ed) a primary role in the perpetuation of evil in the world so God intends for us to play a primary role in its resolution and elimination - to fix what we messed up by our distrust of God - who is all loving and worthy of total trust. Evil came into the world through us (our rebellious distrust) and God intends it to be addressed (resolved) in the same way i.e. us - by His indwelling and empowering love given to us by Christ and our total trust in this - His - perfect and infinite provision. 

The bottom line? A main reason evil exists is we, as Christ's followers have not done to others as we would have them do to us i.e. loved them sacrificially as Christ loved us. If we don't like the evil in the world, we don't need to look at or blame God, we need to look in the mirror.

However, God doesn't intend or expect us to do this (reverse evil) on our own i.e. in or by our own strength. Without God's love filling us, we couldn't if we wanted to. To love sacrificially requires being loved sacrificially.

What caused us to turn inward was our rejection of God's wise and loving direction (warning) and the subsequent loss of His love. This resulted in our no longer being in union with God which short-circuited our power to love others as we are designed to. As a result, our focus is on filling the void caused by God's absence, instead of on God and his infinite love. Our solution was and is now to pursue his creation for life and not the Creator. 

His absence (due to us rejecting Him, not Him rejecting us) resulted in us becoming takers instead of givers, hurting others instead of properly caring for them and the rest of creation. Only God and His love can heal the brokenness of the world but that is done in and through us by healing our brokenness first.

Of course, perfect restoration will not occur until Christ returns (though our legal standing has been fully restored). But the question remains... what role do we as followers of Christ play in ushering in that return. Maybe the primary role?

⁴and one day, when Christ returns and sets up His perfect - completed - rule (Kingdom) of love, it will be.

⁵God respects and honors our choice and will not force us to be with Him. To be in His presence against our will would be a greater hell than being separated from Him in eternity. 

⁶Through His resurrection, Jesus reclaimed all rule and authority over heaven and earth. The deceiver's (satan's) power is disarmed. He only has power over those who go along with him (a few willingly but many - maybe most - unknowingly).

⁷evil and the suffering that comes from it is a primary means of drawing us closer to God in this life. How? By revealing to us how our rebellious independence and distrust of God bring harm and destruction to others as well as ourselves. This dishonors God as well - in whose image we are created.

We are so inclined and quick to default to rebellious independence that suffering (the natural result of rebellion) becomes a necessary and useful tool to remind us of our true dependence on God for wisdom and guidance. Pain is the natural outcome of our rebellion, not unlike sticking our hand in the fire when we were told not to. Every time we do, we are reminded by the pain to remove our hands.

⁸By faith now but ultimately by experience in eternity.

Until we are permanently delivered from the presence of evil, pain, suffering, and death, how do we address it in this life? By faith. Unlike Adam and Eve (and us) - who sought (seek) to determine good and evil without God - Solomon sought God's direction in determining good and evil. This was the fruit of Solomon's humility and dependence on (trust in) God for wisdom. If we humble ourselves God will exalt us as well.

"Give your servant (Solomon) therefore an understanding mind to govern your people, that I may discern between good and evil, for who is able to govern this your great people?” - 1 Kings 3:9 ESV

⁹We are as much like God as possible without actually being God and Christ it is as much like us as possible while still being God. He is the God-man and the only one who is 

and forever will be. To Him be glory and praise forever! He earned it.

A conversation regarding obedience

In Nov. of 2017 I posted the following on Facebook. 

"Why do we pursue God, out of love or fear? 

Both! 

Out of love because he first loved us. 

Out of fear because operating contrary to God's design (how and why he made us) always has an adverse effect (if not immediately, eventually)."

This resulted in an instructive conversation between Rick (a FB friend) and I. I am posting that conversation below to illustrate the misunderstanding, tension, and confusion around our pursuit of (obedience to) God in the hope of clarifying some of the dynamics of that pursuit.

Now to Rick's response and the conversation that followed:

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Rick: 

You mean you aren't a Christian Hedonist? :/ I'm not either :)

Other valid reasons to seek God...

God exists and is the source of all meaning, purpose, and value. Without God, there would be none of these in an objective sense.

God is the ultimate authority over all creation and deserves our utmost obedience to his will, his pleasure and his purpose.

God is the ultimate worth and he is worthy of our praise and worship. Our surrender to God's will is the first step towards truly worshipping God.

Jim: (In response, I sent Rick the following blog post on the dynamics of what moves us to pursue and obey God)

http://thotsaboutgod.blogspot.com/2017/02/an-anatomy-of-motivation.html

Rick quotes from the above blog article adding his comments below...

Rick: 

"An anatomy of motivation - There are two overall but opposite approaches we observe in scripture regarding our motivation to obedience. All underlying forms of motivation fall under these two. These two broader areas are...

· positive motivation
· negative motivation"

His added comments...

- These two categories of motivation are based on the idea that we can expect something good or we can expect something bad. Another option that I believe is important is to acknowledge the authority of God as a basis of motive. In this respect, it is not so much what we personally expect but who God objectively is that forms the basis. If we believe God exists, we can obey God simply because of God's authority, without even contemplating what we personally expect. For example. We are commanded to submit to God and obey God. I can do this simply because God has clearly commanded it and not necessarily for any other reason. Do you agree?

Jim:

Yes, but I believe there's a bit more to obedience than simple willpower. If you haven't read the rest of the article at the above link it hints at this. 

Paul also points out it is God who enables us to choose and desire to pursue him in vs 13 of the following: 

"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." Php 2:12-13

How does he do so? By appealing to self-interest. For example, we are told in Heb 11:6 "And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him." The appeal of this verse is not just that God exists but OUR (us/self) being rewarded. 

Another example is "to gain your life you must lose it." What's the appeal? Us gaining life. The verse simply tells us the best way that happens is by losing our life i.e. we don't find our life by seeking life but by seeking God who is life. 

There is a difference between self-interest and self-ISHNESS. Not distinguishing these causes confusion. Several posts on my blog touch on this. If interested let me know.

Rick: 

Those are interesting verses and I would not be opposed to reading your articles. Because there are so many scriptural aspects of obedience to God, to me this implies that there are many valid motives that can overlap and are not mutually exclusive. I believe that there is a danger of taking a verse like Heb 11:6 and suggesting that this one verse codifies our approach towards obedience to God. For example, there is the motive of love of God that Jesus stated was a valid motive:

"If you love me, keep my commands." John 14:16

The word love is from the Greek "agape" which is translated as a self-less benevolent and giving type of love. So in other words, our motive for obedience based on this verse is not self-interest but is based on pleasing God.

Jim:

Love is THE key motive to obedience. So the question becomes how and when do we love God i.e. what is the cause of (stirs up) our love for him. Scripture clearly teaches our love (the key motive "behind" obedience) is a RESPONSE to his love for us. 1 Jn 4:10 "In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins." In 1Jn 4:19 John goes on to say, "We love because he first loved us." We are not the initiators of love, God is.

This is also implied in John 15. It says without me "you can do nothing..." (vs 5) i.e. we can not bear fruit on our own. Fruit in the context is loving God and others (vs 12,17). So our loving God and others is based on and caused by our abiding in his love for us (vs 9). We can not love as God loves - i.e. sacrificially - otherwise. To say it another way, we are not the cause or source of love but the conduits of it.

Re: the Hebrews passage...it is simply an example, not a proof text. Self-interest is implied throughout scripture. His great offer is eternal life to us i.e. our eternal life. Even fear of the consequences for disobedience is the fear of US suffering. We do nothing apart from self-interest. 

Christ's very appeal to loving our neighbor is love for ourselves "...love your neighbor AS you love yourself..." He doesn't condemn our love of self (our desiring what is best for ourselves) he assumes it and makes his appeal based on that assumption.

The issue isn't our wanting what is best for us, it's how is that best accomplished. Through self-effort or in and by God i.e. through his love for us. 

I think the issue is we don't realize our greatest joy is IN God and recognizing the greatness of his glory i.e. our greatest joy (pleasure) and God's highest glory are not in opposition to each other but tied together. To say it another way, pursuing God and his highest glory IS our greatest joy (pleasure).

Rick: 

Jim Deal - "Self-interest is implied throughout scripture. His great offer is eternal life for US i.e. OUR eternal life." ...Christ's very appeal to loving our neighbor is love for ourselves "...love your neighbor AS you love yourself..." He doesn't condemn our love of self (our desiring what is best for us)

I'm sorry, but implications of our self-interest are always subservient to the interest of pleasing God in the whole of scripture, and plainly commanded as such, and to place our self-interest on equal grounds with pleasing God I believe is shown to be actually heretical based on traditional interpretations.

To take your first point, eternal life is epitomized by relationship together with God: "Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." (John 17:3) And relationship is defined as "being one" in the spirit: "I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one" (John 17:22) --- These verses do not imply that eternal life is based on focusing on the self or that the motive for eternal life is self-interest, rather, the focus is on interrelationship and unity for the glory of God, that is, mainly for GOD'S sake, not our own.

In your second point, you reference the second part of a two-part command and left out the most important first command: Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[a] 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] There is no commandment greater than these.” (Mark 12:30-31)

Matthew Henry clarifies the primacy of scriptural value:

"As we must, therefore, love God BETTER THAN ourselves, because he is Jehovah, a being infinitely better than we are, and must love him with all our heart, because he is one Lord, and there is no other like him; so we must love our neighbor AS OURSELVES, because he is of the same nature with ourselves;" (emphasis added). Here is Matthew Henry's full commentary on this verse:

2. That the second great commandment is, to love our neighbor as ourselves (v. 31), as truly and sincerely as we love ourselves, and in the same instances, and we must show it by doing as we would be done by. As we must therefore love God better than ourselves, because he is Jehovah, a being infinitely better than we are, and must love him with all our heart, because he is one Lord, and there is no other like him; so we must love our neighbour as ourselves, because he is of the same nature with ourselves; our hearts are fashioned alike, and my neighbour and myself are of one body, of one society, that of the world of mankind; and if a fellow-Christian, and of the same sacred society, the obligation is the stronger. Hath not one God created us? Mal. 2:10. Has not one Christ redeemed us?"

If we try to ignore or deny a direct commandment, that clearly states pleasing God (with others-centered agape love) is the highest commandment, and offer that self-interest is on par with or even above the command to please God, how is this not patently heterical?

"our greatest joy (pleasure) and God's highest glory are not in opposition to each other but tied together."

This is basically a toned-down re-phrasing of Piper's maxim. However, the phrase "God is not most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in him" is misleading because the true measure of God's glory is not our personal satisfaction. The highest measure of God's glory is our conformity with God's nature and will, which is most emphasized by conforming to God's nature and will, which is based on agape love and holiness.

Scripture advocates worshipping God in spirit and in truth:

"God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” (John 4:24).

Piper completely discounts many critical aspects of worship, such as affirming and meditating on truth, and heretically demands that the worship of God is based on emotions as an end in and of themselves:

"It can be done only when spontaneous affections arise in the heart. And these affections for God are an end in themselves. They are the essence of eternal worship" (p92 DG)

Jim, I am reading a brief but excellent new book on Piper titled "Christian Hedonism? A biblical examination of John Piper's teaching" by ES Williams, and I believe that it might help you to glean from his research some of the many critical scriptural errors of CH.

Jim:

Rick W Thanks for the feedback.

I don't disagree with anything you said.

Everything must be subservient to God simply because he is the cause of all things (i.e. a more than sufficient reason if there were no other one) "... For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen..." (Rom 11:36)

Nothing in scripture (regarding our obedience) is based on FOCUSING on self.

It sounds like you are equating self-interest with selfishness and that our interests are ABOVE Gods. I've said neither.

What I am saying is our (self's) best interest is IN God. God is our (self's) best interest.

My point is in order for us (self) to know and enjoy God, "self" is not set aside but fully engaged. We (us, self) give God the greatest glory when we (self) find him our greatest joy, treasure, pursuit etc. This isn't putting self above God at all. It is self delighting IN God above all things, vs self delighting in created things over and above God the Creator (our delighting in creation above God is the essence of self ISHNESS. It is seeking to make life work WITHOUT God i.e. through what I can obtain by myself and solely for myself. It is seeking meaning, purpose, joy, etc independent of God for my glory, not his).

However our (self) finding God to be more glorious than anything else "shows him off" (brings attention to his infinite glory, i.e. glorifies him). To believe and then act as if something is more valuable than God, dishonors him. When we find God our greatest delight and pursuit we are telling others, God is more important to me than anything else and therefore could be to you as well.

Regarding the greatest commandment, this actually underscores the point I am seeking to make. Loving our neighbor flows out of loving God first (which is the fruit of his love for us). It all starts with God, is through God and is for God i.e. for his glory e.g. Rom 11:36 

End of our FB conversation. 

In this conversation, we are dealing with very nuanced points. Facebook is generally not the best place for in-depth discussion and contemplation of such things. I say this because after looking this over there are things I did not address that I could have. Therefore I offer these additional thoughts.

Regarding obedience to God out of fear i.e. respect for God, even this is based on "self-interest" i.e. I wish to honor God out of respect for him and because he is worthy of all honor/respect but why do I respect Him?  Because he is all-wise, all-powerful, and just and I don't want something bad happening to me (self) if I don't honor him as such. This isn't selfish. It is rooted in our very being as God's image-bearer. Our being a creature who desires our own best interest is actually necessary in order for us to be able to enjoy and honor God who is most high and most delightful. 

For more on this point click here. 

Rick said, "I'm sorry, but implications of our self-interest are always subservient to the interest of pleasing God in the whole of scripture, and plainly commanded as such, and to place our self-interest on equal grounds with pleasing God I believe is shown to be actually heretical based on traditional interpretations."

This is a common misunderstanding and is hardest to grasp. God's highest glory and our greatest joy are not in competition or opposed to each other or that we can only do one or the other. So there are no "equal grounds." They are tied together but not equal because everything must start with God. Nothing happens if God were not all glorious. However, our greatest joy is God's highest glory. The more we exalt him - recognize His glory - the more we experience Him as He is and the greater our joy becomes. Joy is the result of recognizing and acting upon God's greatness - His infinite glory. We find him to be our greatest joy when we lift him up (glorify him) as the highest/greatest (most delightful) being of all beings or things and the only one worthy of our honor and greatest delight. This is not an "either/or" scenario. God's glory and our delight in God go hand in hand but in that order. It always must start with God, not us. If God were not the greatest of all beings, we would not and could not find the great joy that is God himself. And we are wired this way because this is how God designed us, so we might share in His glory as He does as Father and Son in by and through the Spirit. To enjoy God most we have to be most like Him without being God i.e. we are in His image.

Rick said:

Another option that I believe is important is to acknowledge the authority of God as a basis of motive. In this respect, it is not so much what we personally expect but who God objectively is that forms the basis. If we believe God exists, we can obey God simply because of God's authority, without even contemplating what we personally expect. For example. We are commanded to submit to God and obey God. I can do this simply because God has clearly commanded it and not necessarily for any other reason. Do you agree?"

Whether Rick deliberately intends to, the implication of what he is proposing is we have within ourselves the spiritual strength to obey God by simply willing ourselves to do so without God empowering us i.e. apart from his Love/Spirit. This is placing our will as the key (central) to obedience instead of God. However, God is the driving force behind our obedience, not our will. It is God who works in us "...both to will and to work for his good pleasure." Our will is an intricate part of obedience but it is not the central part, God is. Our will is vital in deciding (choosing) to believe God is who He claims to be and does (did and will do) what He promises/claims He will do. But this is choosing to believe is anchored into who God is generally and who He is for us specifically. It is based on faith in the character of God,  not faith based on faith in itself or how great our will is.

For a further discussion on this point click here.

The following verses clearly show the will and desire to obey God come from God, not us. Yes, it is our desires but desires that God "works" in and through us by revealing to us His great glory. 

Philippians 2:12-13 English Standard Version (ESV) 

12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Though we are in God's image which allows us (gives us the capacity) to honor and enjoy God, absent God's Spirit/Love we are dead to God. We are not the source/cause/initiators of sacrificial love. Only God is. We can only love sacrificially when we know God loves us sacrificially and "has our back" i.e. God honors and rewards us and all our actions when done for his honor.

For more discussions on obedience click here.  

For more discussion on how our worth is tied to God's click here.