Showing posts sorted by date for query pleasing God. Sort by relevance Show all posts
Showing posts sorted by date for query pleasing God. Sort by relevance Show all posts

Tuesday, January 18, 2022

Why does God allow evil

The age old question is if God is good why does He ¹allow evil and suffering to continue?

But in the most important and ultimate sense He doesn't (and didn't). One day the scales of justice will be completely balanced. 

But what about now? 

At the very outset of our turning away from God, He reached out to us with an immediate - though temporary - solution. 

He also promised and eventually ²provided the permanent and ultimate solution to evil - along with all its fallout - in the most amazing and unexpected way. A way for anyone who receives it. Not necessarily the solution ³we would prefer but in a way that surfaces and exposes our core problem and why suffering remains - i.e. our distrust of the Creator. This is also the central truth the Book of Job seeks to reveal to us.

God is not indifferent to our pain nor has He abandoned us or lost control by allowing it to continue. Pain and suffering continue for good reason - but only for now. Our distrust of God must be ⁹fully exposed, with all its fallout, so we might recognize its true destructive nature and abandon it (the exact opposite of our abandoning God in Eden) and more fully enter into and participate in the glory of God - which is our greatest good and highest joy.

In short, God is using evil for good. If he wasn't, it would be ⁴removed. One day, when it has accomplished its intended purpose it will be. But not before then.  

So for now suffering remains for good reason and a good purpose. But we can only benefit fully from it when we trust Him. The greater our trust the greater our gain i.e. evil is always used for good if and when we trust His good and loving intentions in allowing it to remain. If we do not trust Him, suffering will only embitter and eventually destroy us. 

This may not be what we want or like to hear but that is because we don't see what God fully sees and knows is ultimately for the greatest good - our greatest good

In this life, God uses what was meant (by the destroyer - satan) for our harm and destruction (i.e. evil) and turns it on its head. He "redeems" evil if you will, and uses it to ultimately advance us not destroy or harm us. But only if we trust Him and this process.

Pain and suffering are now a primary (maybe the primary) means of turning us back to God when we aren't pursuing Him or drawing those who are pursuing Him even closer.

Our agenda and wisdom doesn't match God's, whose wisdom and intent are perfect. Ours is not. Again our distrust of God is our biggest issue (not our pain) and He addressed it - and is addressing it - perfectly through all He allows us to go through.

If and when we choose to remain in rebellious unbelief and defiance of God, suffering will overcome and embitter us (experiencing anger when we encounter pain is always a clue we do not trust Him and still may ultimately have a bone to pick with God. This is the real issue...not the "mystery" of why we suffer). 

Our biggest challenge is not suffering but remaining in our unbelief. This ultimately leads to our permanent ⁴separation from God (whereas our present separation, along with all the suffering it brings, is only temporary once we turn back to Him). But if and when we turn to Him we are told (and over time come to realize) that God uses suffering (evil) for the good of those who trust and love Him (if not in our immediate circumstances, in our ultimate circumstances i.e. in eternity). Otherwise, if we refuse to trust Him, pain will embitter and ultimately destroy us. It is the path to perpetual pain.

So in the most important and ultimate sense evil has been dismantled and can no longer destroy us in the way our adversary intended, as long as we trust our Creator. Why?

1. The day is coming - and has already been put into motion - when pain and death will be done away with completely. The resurrection of Christ is our proof. His resurrection was the first fruits of what is to come. Life ultimately wins over pain, suffering, and death. If we trust Him we too will ultimately rise one day and overcome death just as he did.

2. The presence of evil is (for now) a means to turn us back to God and draw us closer to Him.


3. The presence of evil provides a means and opportunity for us to advance spiritually. We actually gain when, ⁸by faith, we overcome evil and suffering - just as Christ did when He, on our behalf, overcame it. This is the exact opposite of what we are naturally inclined to believe and what our adversary intends. Because of our pain, we are given an opportunity to become more like Christ if we receive it by faith i.e. believe that God is accomplishing our ultimate good not harm, through our pain.

In the most significant and ultimate sense evil and suffering have not only been forever ⁵disarmed and more than defeated but are also being used for the very opposite of what we think i.e. good. He not only put into motion the eventual and complete removal of all pain one day but until that day arrives he "redeems" and uses it for the good of those who love and trust Him. 

How did God accomplish this?

When Christ became a man and fully embraced the harm, damage, and hurt (pain, evil) we cause each other - and let it kill him (instead of us) - He overcame death, evil, and suffering by 1st embracing it fully until it killed Him and then forever disarmed it when he ⁶came back to life. As a result, if we believe and accept all that Christ did, we too ⁷will overcome the pain, suffering, and death we bring (brought) into the world and raise to that very same life that Christ rose to - i.e. a life of bliss and glory with the Father of life, love, and all things. 

We are not only "victims" of pain but the perpetrators (cause) of pain. But Christ took care of all of it by submitting to it until it killed Him and then came back to life and declared victory over death and pain forever. 

Christ's ⁵resurrection changed how we look at and deal with pain and suffering. Evil and death did (does) not have the final word, life did (does) because of Christ! For this, He deserves (and will receive) our highest praise and gratitude forever and ever, amen!

We can no longer question whether God is good. In and by Christ's incarnation, death, and resurrection God proved and established His goodness beyond question. In and through Christ good and evil met and good won.

Christ fully embraced all aspects of our pain - physical, emotional, and spiritual - by His obedience unto death. Now He offers victory over death via His resurrection, so we don't have to die but be ultimately will be delivered from it. The offer of complete and ultimate freedom from pain is available to all who receive it. 

All of this was done for us, as well as for the rest of creationEvil, pain, and death were (and are) not only permanently defeated - at the very moment Christ came back to life - it is now being used to reverse our separation from God practically. He first did this legally and continues to do this in our day-to-day walk - as we put our trust in Him. Because of Christ, the pain will eventually be eliminated altogether.

⁸Christ completely disarmed evil and dismantled its ultimate destructive effect - death - forever. Now he offers a life of infinite bliss to any who will accept His offer of restoration to Him and eventually complete freedom from pain and death forever.

Does this answer the question of why God allows evil to continue? Maybe not for many. But it can give us a helpful glimpse into the answer if we let it. 

For a further discussion of how God uses evil for our good click here...and here.

The greater the evil the greater the opportunity for healing/grace click here.

For a discussion on the key lesson from the book of Job click here.

For a further discussion on the value of paradox click here.

For a further discussion of how big is God exactly click here

For a discussion of how pain can help us see Christ's love click here
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¹God did not cause us to rebel or cause our brokenness or the pain and all the suffering in the world that followed. The world is broken because we (like Adam and Eve, our original ancestors) continue to choose to distrust God - i.e. God didn't break us or the rest of creation, we disconnected and broke (short-circuited) that connection when we turned away from God. 

If God provides us a warm house filled with light - and tells us we are safe if we remain inside - yet we step outside into the cold dark night, guess who moved? A hint...it wasn't God.

God loves and values our ability to choose to such a great extent that he gave us the choice and freedom to rebel and reject Him - because choice is a key part of us being like God and partaking of Him to the greatest extent possible - ⁹without our actually being God (which we can never be by virtue of being created). The consequences of our choice are far less significant to God than our ability to freely make them.

Some deny the existence of evil but that is only because of how evil is commonly defined. To get an accurate definition we must go to the source, the Bible itself. How does it define evil (and good)?

The following definitions are found in the original Hebrew. 

Emphasis my own:
Evil - H7451b  רַע ra  (948c); from the same as H7455evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity— adversity (7), calamity (4), disaster (2), evil (94)harm (2), harmful (1), hurt (1), ruin (3), surely (1), trouble (2), unpleasant (1), wickedly (1), wickedness (1).
H7455  רע - rôa‛BDB (Brown-Driver-Briggs') Definition:1) badness, evil 1a) badness, bad quality 1b) wilfulness 1c) evil, badness (ethical) 1d) sadness
Good - H2896b  טוֹב - tob  (375a); from H2895a good thing, benefit, welfare: — enjoy *(1), good (66)good thing (3), good things (2), goodness (1), graciously (1), happiness (1), happy (1), pleasant (1), prosperity (8), richer (1), well (1), what is good (1), what is good (4).
H2895  טוֹב - tob (373b); a primrootto be pleasing or good: — any (1), did well (2), done well (1), fair (1), go well (1), good (1), good (5), high (1), merry (3), please (2), pleased *(2), pleases (4), pleases *(2), pleasing (1), well (8), well-off (1). 
We could sum these definitions up as follows:

Good - God himself and all the benefits, provision, and pleasure that come in knowing him and being in His loving presence, and being known and fully embraced by Him.

Evil - Injury or harm (e.g. death) that comes to us due to the absence of God (because of our turning away from Him in rebellious distrust) and all the good things he provides. 

Before man's rebellion, the Bible doesn't say they did not know good, it says they did not know good and evil i.e. good in contrast to or compared to evil. We can only fully understand and appreciate goodness when it is absent, just like we can only fully appreciate light and warmth when things are cold and dark.

Are we evil? For a discussion click here.

²The solution is only God can restore us, we can't restore (save) ourselves. And the way he does this requires us to trust Him and His provision. 

This was established at the very outset of mankind's rebellion when God provided Adam and Eve with animal skins to cover their shame, resulting in the death of another living creature (the consequences of our rebellion and God's warning of death). 

The ultimate provision was also promised at that time in the child (seed) of the women i.e. a living being after the image of man as well as God (i.e. the Son of God and man - Jesus) would be the ultimate sacrifice leading to the eventual end of all pain and destruction for any who trust in God's provision.

The sacrifice of a living being for the rebellion of another seems severe and barbaric but this only indicates our lack of understanding of the severe nature of that rebellion and the severe harm it causes. Our rebellion is destructive with very real and severe consequences. It causes harm, destruction, and death. God doesn't cause death (we do). He provided the solution for death i.e. the death of someone other than us who took the consequences for our destructive choices and their resulting conduct.

God warned the day we rebelled we would die. Death was simply the natural outcome of our disconnecting from life i.e. our Creator, who is the very cause and source of life, not death. The natural or organic (and reasonable) result of cutting ourselves off from the source of life is death. When God said the day we eat we would surely die was not a statement of judgment but the simple reality that to disconnect from life results in the opposite i.e. death.

Once we rebelled the damage had been done. The only option was for something else to die in our place for the consequences of our disconnecting from the Source of life if we were to be restored and avoid our own death. 

The harm and destruction caused by our rebellion matter and could not be ignored or pretended not to matter. Someone or something had to suffer the destructive consequences of our rebellious distrust of God if we were to escape those consequences ourselves. 

Sacrificing another for our benefit (so we wouldn't have to reap the consequences of our distrust) isn't barbaric it is an act of severe mercy. What is destructive, evil, and barbaric is our rebellion, not the sacrifice made to spare and rescue us from its consequences i.e. our distrust. The evil, pain, and suffering in the world are the consequence of our rebellion and a clear indication of how severe our rebellion is. 

³We'd prefer He simply removed evil altogether so we can go about our life uninterrupted as long as and only if it doesn't involve God i.e. require us to trust Him. We love and embrace the benefits of creation. We simply do not want to trust the Creator. Ironic when you think about it. How can we justly accept and love the good benefits that someone offers yet reject them?

We prefer being our own god, only without the consequences. We don't want God, we only want relief. We attempt to gain that by using the good gifts of creation without fully acknowledging the Creator - the loving Giver of those gifts. To use an old idiom and analogy, we want to have our cake and eat it too.

If God is good why does He allow evil, is the wrong question. Why? It is based on the following wrong assumptions.

1. God must be the ¹cause of evil (and is therefore evil himself).

2. He doesn't know what He is doing by allowing it to happen in the first place (and by giving us the ability to choose) or allowing it to continue (this assumes we are wiser than the Source of all knowledge and wisdom... a little arrogant on our part wouldn't you agree?).

3. We have no responsibility (or choice) for the ongoing evil, pain, and suffering in the world i.e. our rebellious distrust of God isn't the actual problem, God is i.e. evils existence is not our fault or problem to solve, it's His - or so we think. 

But He didn't provide the ultimate solution to our pain because He had to, but because He choose to i.e. out of love, not obligation.

These assumptions reveal the true condition of our heart i.e. an arrogant heart that does not trust or believe God is good, wise, and loving - as He claims (and proved through Christ) - in all he does or allows. We simply don't believe we need Him.

God is addressing evil but not in the way we prefer, expect, or demand. He's addressing evil not by removing it from our world (at least for now) but by removing it from our individual hearts - internally vs externally - one person and step at a time, so we will increasingly approach the world as we were originally designed to - full of love - His love. And this so the world might progressively be healed and become more whole again through us, to the glory of God, not just ours.

We play(ed) a primary role in the perpetuation of evil in the world so God intends for us to play a primary role in its resolution and elimination - to fix what we messed up by our distrust of God - who is all loving and worthy of total trust. Evil came into the world through us (our rebellious distrust) and God intends it to be addressed (resolved) in the same way i.e. us - by His indwelling and empowering love given to us by Christ and our total trust in this - His - perfect and infinite provision. 

The bottom line? A main reason evil exists is we, as Christ's followers have not done to others as we would have them do to us i.e. loved them sacrificially as Christ loved us. If we don't like the evil in the world, we don't need to look at or blame God, we need to look in the mirror.

However, God doesn't intend or expect us to do this (reverse evil) on our own i.e. in or by our own strength. Without God's love filling us, we couldn't if we wanted to. To love sacrificially requires being loved sacrificially.

What caused us to turn inward was our rejection of God's wise and loving direction (warning) and the subsequent loss of His love. This resulted in our no longer being in union with God which short-circuited our power to love others as we are designed to. As a result, our focus is on filling the void caused by God's absence, instead of on God and his infinite love. Our solution was and is now to pursue his creation for life and not the Creator

His absence (due to us rejecting Him, not Him rejecting us) resulted in us becoming takers instead of givers, hurting others instead of properly caring for them and the rest of creation. Only God and His love can heal the brokenness of the world but that is done in and through us by healing our brokenness first.

Of course, perfect restoration will not occur until Christ returns (though our legal standing has been fully restored). But the question remains... what role do we as followers of Christ play in ushering in that return. Maybe the primary role?

⁴and one day, when Christ returns and sets up His perfect - completed - rule (Kingdom) of love, it will be.

⁵God respects and honors our choice and will not force us to be with Him. To be in His presence against our will would be a greater hell than being separated from Him in eternity. 

⁶Through His resurrection, Jesus reclaimed all rule and authority over heaven and earth. The deceiver's (satan's) power is disarmed. He only has power over those who go along with him (a few willingly but many - maybe most - unknowingly).

⁷evil and the suffering that comes from it is a primary means of drawing us closer to God in this life. How? By revealing to us how our rebellious independence and distrust of God bring harm and destruction to others as well as ourselves. This dishonors God as well - in whose image we are created.

We are so inclined and quick to default to rebellious independence that suffering (the natural result of rebellion) becomes a necessary and useful tool to remind us of our true dependence on God for wisdom and guidance. Pain is the natural outcome of our rebellion, not unlike sticking our hand in the fire when we were told not to. Every time we do, we are reminded by the pain to remove our hands.

⁸By faith now but ultimately by experience in eternity.

Until we are permanently delivered from the presence of evil, pain, suffering, and death, how do we address it in this life? By faith. Unlike Adam and Eve (and us) - who sought (seek) to determine good and evil without God - Solomon sought God's direction in determining good and evil. This was the fruit of Solomon's humility and dependence on (trust in) God for wisdom. If we humble ourselves God will exalt us as well.

"Give your servant (Solomon) therefore an understanding mind to govern your people, that I may discern between good and evil, for who is able to govern this your great people?” - 1 Kings 3:9 ESV

⁹We are as much like God as possible without actually being God and Christ it is as much like us as possible while still being God. He is the God-man and the only one who is 
and forever will be. To Him be glory and praise forever! He earned it.




Saturday, October 23, 2021

A conversation regarding obedience

In Nov. of 2017 I posted the following on Facebook
"Why do we pursue God, out of love or fear? 
Both! 
Out of love because he first loved us. 
Out of fear because operating contrary to God's design (how and why he made us) always has an adverse effect (if not immediately, eventually)."
This resulted in an instructive conversation between Rick (a FB friend) and I. I am posting that conversation below to illustrate the misunderstanding, tension, and confusion around our pursuit of (obedience to) God in the hope of clarifying some of the dynamics of that pursuit.

Now to Rick's response and the conversation that followed:
___________________________________________________________


Rick: 

You mean you aren't a Christian Hedonist? :/ I'm not either :)

Other valid reasons to seek God...

God exists and is the source of all meaning, purpose, and value. Without God, there would be none of these in an objective sense.

God is the ultimate authority over all creation and deserves our utmost obedience to his will, his pleasure and his purpose.

God is the ultimate worth and he is worthy of our praise and worship. Our surrender to God's will is the first step towards truly worshipping God.


Jim: (In response, I sent Rick the following blog post on the dynamics of what moves us to pursue and obey God)


Rick quotes from the above blog article adding his comments below...


Rick: 

"An anatomy of motivation - There are two overall but opposite approaches we observe in scripture regarding our motivation to obedience. All underlying forms of motivation fall under these two. These two broader areas are...

· positive motivation
· negative motivation"

His added comments...


- These two categories of motivation are based on the idea that we can expect something good or we can expect something bad. Another option that I believe is important is to acknowledge the authority of God as a basis of motive. In this respect, it is not so much what we personally expect but who God objectively is that forms the basis. If we believe God exists, we can obey God simply because of God's authority, without even contemplating what we personally expect. For example. We are commanded to submit to God and obey God. I can do this simply because God has clearly commanded it and not necessarily for any other reason. Do you agree?


Jim:

Yes, but I believe there's a bit more to obedience than simple willpower. If you haven't read the rest of the article at the above link it hints at this. 

Paul also points out it is God who enables us to choose and desire to pursue him in vs 13 of the following: 

"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." Php 2:12-13

How does he do so? By appealing to self-interest. For example, we are told in Heb 11:6 "And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him." The appeal of this verse is not just that God exists but OUR (us/self) being rewarded. 

Another example is "to gain your life you must lose it." What's the appeal? Us gaining life. The verse simply tells us the best way that happens is by losing our life i.e. we don't find our life by seeking life but by seeking God who is life. 

There is a difference between self-interest and self-ISHNESS. Not distinguishing these causes confusion. Several posts on my blog touch on this. If interested let me know.


Rick: 

Those are interesting verses and I would not be opposed to reading your articles. Because there are so many scriptural aspects of obedience to God, to me this implies that there are many valid motives that can overlap and are not mutually exclusive. I believe that there is a danger of taking a verse like Heb 11:6 and suggesting that this one verse codifies our approach towards obedience to God. For example, there is the motive of love of God that Jesus stated was a valid motive:

"If you love me, keep my commands." John 14:16

The word love is from the Greek "agape" which is translated as a self-less benevolent and giving type of love. So in other words, our motive for obedience based on this verse is not self-interest but is based on pleasing God.


Jim:

Love is THE key motive to obedience. So the question becomes how and when do we love God i.e. what is the cause of (stirs up) our love for him. Scripture clearly teaches our love (the key motive "behind" obedience) is a RESPONSE to his love for us. 1 Jn 4:10 "In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins." In 1Jn 4:19 John goes on to say, "We love because he first loved us." We are not the initiators of love, God is.

This is also implied in John 15. It says without me "you can do nothing..." (vs 5) i.e. we can not bear fruit on our own. Fruit in the context is loving God and others (vs 12,17). So our loving God and others is based on and caused by our abiding in his love for us (vs 9). We can not love as God loves - i.e. sacrificially - otherwise. To say it another way, we are not the cause or source of love but the conduits of it.

Re: the Hebrews passage...it is simply an example, not a proof text. Self-interest is implied throughout scripture. His great offer is eternal life to us i.e. our eternal life. Even fear of the consequences for disobedience is the fear of US suffering. We do nothing apart from self-interest. 

Christ's very appeal to loving our neighbor is love for ourselves "...love your neighbor AS you love yourself..." He doesn't condemn our love of self (our desiring what is best for ourselves) he assumes it and makes his appeal based on that assumption.

The issue isn't our wanting what is best for us, it's how is that best accomplished. Through self-effort or in and by God i.e. through his love for us

I think the issue is we don't realize our greatest joy is IN God and recognizing the greatness of his glory i.e. our greatest joy (pleasure) and God's highest glory are not in opposition to each other but tied together. To say it another way, pursuing God and his highest glory IS our greatest joy (pleasure).


Rick: 

Jim Deal - "Self-interest is implied throughout scripture. His great offer is eternal life for US i.e. OUR eternal life." ...Christ's very appeal to loving our neighbor is love for ourselves "...love your neighbor AS you love yourself..." He doesn't condemn our love of self (our desiring what is best for us)

I'm sorry, but implications of our self-interest are always subservient to the interest of pleasing God in the whole of scripture, and plainly commanded as such, and to place our self-interest on equal grounds with pleasing God I believe is shown to be actually heretical based on traditional interpretations.

To take your first point, eternal life is epitomized by relationship together with God: "Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." (John 17:3) And relationship is defined as "being one" in the spirit: "I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one" (John 17:22) --- These verses do not imply that eternal life is based on focusing on the self or that the motive for eternal life is self-interest, rather, the focus is on interrelationship and unity for the glory of God, that is, mainly for GOD'S sake, not our own.

In your second point, you reference the second part of a two-part command and left out the most important first command: Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[a] 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] There is no commandment greater than these.” (Mark 12:30-31)

Matthew Henry clarifies the primacy of scriptural value:

"As we must, therefore, love God BETTER THAN ourselves, because he is Jehovah, a being infinitely better than we are, and must love him with all our heart, because he is one Lord, and there is no other like him; so we must love our neighbor AS OURSELVES, because he is of the same nature with ourselves;" (emphasis added). Here is Matthew Henry's full commentary on this verse:

2. That the second great commandment is, to love our neighbor as ourselves (v. 31), as truly and sincerely as we love ourselves, and in the same instances, and we must show it by doing as we would be done by. As we must therefore love God better than ourselves, because he is Jehovah, a being infinitely better than we are, and must love him with all our heart, because he is one Lord, and there is no other like him; so we must love our neighbour as ourselves, because he is of the same nature with ourselves; our hearts are fashioned alike, and my neighbour and myself are of one body, of one society, that of the world of mankind; and if a fellow-Christian, and of the same sacred society, the obligation is the stronger. Hath not one God created us? Mal. 2:10. Has not one Christ redeemed us?"

If we try to ignore or deny a direct commandment, that clearly states pleasing God (with others-centered agape love) is the highest commandment, and offer that self-interest is on par with or even above the command to please God, how is this not patently heterical?

"our greatest joy (pleasure) and God's highest glory are not in opposition to each other but tied together."

This is basically a toned-down re-phrasing of Piper's maxim. However, the phrase "God is not most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in him" is misleading because the true measure of God's glory is not our personal satisfaction. The highest measure of God's glory is our conformity with God's nature and will, which is most emphasized by conforming to God's nature and will, which is based on agape love and holiness.

Scripture advocates worshipping God in spirit and in truth:

"God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” (John 4:24).

Piper completely discounts many critical aspects of worship, such as affirming and meditating on truth, and heretically demands that the worship of God is based on emotions as an end in and of themselves:

"It can be done only when spontaneous affections arise in the heart. And these affections for God are an end in themselves. They are the essence of eternal worship" (p92 DG)

Jim, I am reading a brief but excellent new book on Piper titled "Christian Hedonism? A biblical examination of John Piper's teaching" by ES Williams, and I believe that it might help you to glean from his research some of the many critical scriptural errors of CH.


Jim:

Rick W Thanks for the feedback.

I don't disagree with anything you said.

Everything must be subservient to God simply because he is the cause of all things (i.e. a more than sufficient reason if there were no other one) "... For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen..." (Rom 11:36)

Nothing in scripture (regarding our obedience) is based on FOCUSING on self.

It sounds like you are equating self-interest with selfishness and that our interests are ABOVE Gods. I've said neither.

What I am saying is our (self's) best interest is IN God. God is our (self's) best interest.

My point is in order for us (self) to know and enjoy God, "self" is not set aside but fully engaged. We (us, self) give God the greatest glory when we (self) find him our greatest joy, treasure, pursuit etc. This isn't putting self above God at all. It is self delighting IN God above all things, vs self delighting in created things over and above God the Creator (our delighting in creation above God is the essence of self ISHNESS. It is seeking to make life work WITHOUT God i.e. through what I can obtain by myself and solely for myself. It is seeking meaning, purpose, joy, etc independent of God for my glory, not his).

However our (self) finding God to be more glorious than anything else "shows him off" (brings attention to his infinite glory, i.e. glorifies him). To believe and then act as if something is more valuable than God, dishonors him. When we find God our greatest delight and pursuit we are telling others, God is more important to me than anything else and therefore could be to you as well.

Regarding the greatest commandment, this actually underscores the point I am seeking to make. Loving our neighbor flows out of loving God first (which is the fruit of his love for us). It all starts with God, is through God and is for God i.e. for his glory e.g. Rom 11:36 

End of our FB conversation. 

In this conversation, we are dealing with very nuanced points. Facebook is generally not the best place for in-depth discussion and contemplation of such things. I say this because after looking this over there are things I did not address that I could have. Therefore I offer these additional thoughts.

Regarding obedience to God out of fear i.e. respect for God, even this is based on "self-interest" i.e. I wish to honor God out of respect for him and because he is worthy of all honor/respect but why do I respect Him?  Because he is all-wise, all-powerful, and just and I don't want something bad happening to me (self) if I don't honor him as such. This isn't selfish. It is rooted in our very being as God's image-bearer. Our being a creature who desires our own best interest is actually necessary in order for us to be able to enjoy and honor God who is most high and most delightful. 

For more on this point click here

Rick said, "I'm sorry, but implications of our self-interest are always subservient to the interest of pleasing God in the whole of scripture, and plainly commanded as such, and to place our self-interest on equal grounds with pleasing God I believe is shown to be actually heretical based on traditional interpretations."

This is a common misunderstanding and is hardest to grasp. God's highest glory and our greatest joy are not in competition or opposed to each other or that we can only do one or the other. So there are no "equal grounds." They are tied together but not equal because everything must start with God. Nothing happens if God were not all glorious. However, our greatest joy is God's highest glory. The more we exalt him - recognize His glory - the more we experience Him as He is and the greater our joy becomes. Joy is the result of recognizing and acting upon God's greatness - His infinite glory. We find him to be our greatest joy when we lift him up (glorify him) as the highest/greatest (most delightful) being of all beings or things and the only one worthy of our honor and greatest delight. This is not an "either/or" scenario. God's glory and our delight in God go hand in hand but in that order. It always must start with God, not us. If God were not the greatest of all beings, we would not and could not find the great joy that is God himself. And we are wired this way because this is how God designed us, so we might share in His glory as He does as Father and Son in by and through the Spirit. To enjoy God most we have to be most like Him without being God i.e. we are in His image.


Rick said:

Another option that I believe is important is to acknowledge the authority of God as a basis of motive. In this respect, it is not so much what we personally expect but who God objectively is that forms the basis. If we believe God exists, we can obey God simply because of God's authority, without even contemplating what we personally expect. For example. We are commanded to submit to God and obey God. I can do this simply because God has clearly commanded it and not necessarily for any other reason. Do you agree?"

Whether Rick deliberately intends to, the implication of what he is proposing is we have within ourselves the spiritual strength to obey God by simply willing ourselves to do so without God empowering us i.e. apart from his Love/Spirit. This is placing our will as the key (central) to obedience instead of God. However, God is the driving force behind our obedience, not our will. It is God who works in us "...both to will and to work for his good pleasure." Our will is an intricate part of obedience but it is not the central part, God is. Our will is vital in deciding (choosing) to believe God is who He claims to be and does (did and will do) what He promises/claims He will do. But this is choosing to believe is anchored into who God is generally and who He is for us specifically. It is based on faith in the character of God,  not faith based on faith in itself or how great our will is.


For a further discussion on this point click here.

The following verses clearly show the will and desire to obey God come from God, not us. Yes, it is our desires but desires that God "works" in and through us by revealing to us His great glory. 

Philippians 2:12-13 English Standard Version (ESV) 

12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Though we are in God's image which allows us (gives us the capacity) to honor and enjoy God, absent God's Spirit/Love we are dead to God. We are not the source/cause/initiators of sacrificial love. Only God is. We can only love sacrificially when we know God loves us sacrificially and "has our back" i.e. God honors and rewards us and all our actions when done for his honor.

For more discussions on obedience click here 

For more discussion on how our worth is tied to God's click here. 







Wednesday, February 24, 2021

acceptance vs pleasing

What is the difference between being accepted (received by) someone and pleasing them i.e. bringing them joy?

God fully accepts us

We are told God fully accepts us when we are in Christ. Nothing we do, say, or go through will make this more or less so than it already is. In the eyes of God, we are perfect and fully loved as if we are perfect (even though we are not).

We can please Him 

However, as our loving Father (parent), he is always delighted when we faithfully pursue Him and His directions (commands). This doesn't mean he loves us more for doing so, it means we experience and participate in His love more fully which brings Him greater joy.  He delights in our delight in Him. 

This isn't hard to understand when we consider our kids. Because they are our kids, who we love dearly, we always want what's best for them no matter what. When they go down a path we know is ¹not good for them, our love is expressed even more by the ache it causes us and by the actions we take to help prevent their harm - even if it causes them some pain (loss) now to avoid a greater pain (loss) later. We love our kids no matter what and simply do not want our kids to be harmed ¹if at all possible. 

And when they return and acknowledge they have been on the wrong path, are we not delighted? Yes, but why? 

Just as the father of the prodigal son was delighted to see his son return - so much so that he ran to him when he saw him a far way off (why do you think he spotted him so far away? He was scanning the horizon hoping and looking for his return). His love for his son was steadfast and never waned even in his sons rebellion and wandering. In this way, our heavenly Father pursues and delights in us when we return to Him in order to pursue and honor him. He knows our honoring him is in our best interest and for his greatest glory.

If this is the kind of love we have for our kids - imperfect as we and our love are - how much more so is this the kind of love our perfect heavenly Father has for us?

7 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks, it will be opened.

9 Or which one of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? 11 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him! Matthew 7:7-11

For a discussion on whether God's love is conditional or unconditional click here  

For a discussion on being under grace not law click here

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¹we know that pain can be a good teacher, so we may allow our kids to make mistakes. We simply make ourselves available to comfort and embrace them when they return and seek it and us.  

As a child, when my dad spanked me, he would say something like "this hurts me more than it does you."  I would think to myself "sure it does dad" having no idea what he meant. Once I had my kids I understood. He was inflicting a smaller pain to prevent me from experiencing a much greater pain if I continued on the destructive course I was on.

When my kids were young we had a golden retriever named Buddy. Though he was a great dog he had zero street sense...less than zero. He had wandered into the street on several occasions and at this point had been hit at least 3 times. As a result, he was once laid up for almost a month from one incident. 

One day he had gotten off his chain and bolted for the street. I ran after him screaming "stop Buddy" and was able to grab him right before he ran into traffic. I yanked him into the yard, grabbed a small branch from the tree, and swatted his backside until he yelped. My son yelled "stop! You're hurting him, dad." To which I replied, "exactly!" Then I explained to David that causing Buddy a little pain now may prevent him from going into the street again and getting killed... far more significant harm. I asked my son which was more acceptable to him, for Buddy to get killed or to experience a little pain now that might prevent him from being killed in the future. He got it. 

God desires our highest good and knows that He alone is that highest good and we experience him most fully in our faithful pursuit of him. When we veer off that path (and run into traffic) He will either allow us to suffer the consequences so we learn to more faithfully pursue him or deliberately and directly chasten us - remember it is those who God loves that he corrects. However, when we are faithfully pursuing him, he is pleased because he knows it not only brings him his highest and rightful honor but also is for our greatest good. This has nothing to do with whether he does or doesn't accept and love us and everything to do with the fact that he already perfectly does in Christ. The fruit of knowing we are perfectly loved is faithfulness to the only one who loves us perfectly.


Tuesday, January 5, 2021

Righteousness vs shame

Righteousness is a dirty word for many today. In the minds of more than a few, it suggests someone who is self-righteous or hypocritical. This is justifiably unappealing to anyone. 

However, the Bible offers a very different definition. 

Righteousness means to be and feel presentable, acceptable i.e. right. To pass inspection and be approved and found acceptable and in right relationship with another, even pleasing in the eyes of someone I wish or seek to please. 

We want to be approved by someone we value and even more so by someone whose opinion we value most; someone who is ¹highly valuable themselves that we highly regard or value. The more important they are to us and others the more significant their approval.

We all desire to be well-pleasing - approved, accepted, praised, and impressive in the eyes of another. 

Shame is feeling just the opposite - it is feeling rejected,  unacceptable, unapproved, and insignificant.

Prior to the rebellion in Eden, there was no shame, i.e. No sense of being unacceptable or unpresentable; of not feeling or being right. We were totally comfortable being uncovered with nothing hidden - not just physically, but in every way. (Hiding indicates guilt and shame. Before the rebellion in the garden, there was neither). We felt no need to hide or cover anything, particularly failure since there had been none.

And the man and his wife were both naked and ⁵were not ashamed.  Genesis 2:25 ESV

Why does shame matter? 

Ever since the rebellion of our original parents in Eden we have been under the burden of a deeply buried sense of shame from failure. This sense of shame (failure) has a very powerful hold and control over us. So much so that Adam and Eve felt compelled to hide - to cover themselves in an attempt to hide their failure to heed God's directions and its resulting shame. 

Since the original rebellion of Adam, we are now filled with shame because of alienation from (and absence of) our Creator - the true and rightful source of our significance and value. 

We severed our connection with God (and our sense of His acceptance and approval) by turning away from Him and refusing to heed his warning to not eat from the forbidden tree. 

As a result, we had to be removed from the garden - i.e. paradise, home - so we could no longer eat of the tree of life while ²in this state of rebellion. This would have allowed us to live indefinitely without having to deal with and face the consequences of our rebellion. This is contrary to who we truly are - i.e. creatures designed to be in harmony with their Creator and willingly participating and experiencing life with and in God. Their choice severed their relationship with our Creator.

Ever since our rebellion we have also longed to be restored and return to Eden; to be welcomed again; to be complete again; to have peace and contentment again; to be filled with love and joy without interruption again - as we were originally and are still designed to be now. 

We long to be "home" i.e. in a place where we feel we belong and are safe. A place where we are welcomed, held, and cherished.

But we want this on our terms, not the terms we were designed to live under. We have rebelled and continue to rebel against God and our design. We now refuse to trust Him and seek Him to fill this longing for "home."  We seek "home" anywhere and in anything other than God.

Our rebellion may not be conscious on our part but every time we look to anything other than God for our sense of value, it is an act of rebellion, i.e. distrust of God. We put our trust in anything but God - who alone can give us our true sense of value (glory) - and look anywhere except to Him for life - i.e. for meaning, significance, purpose, value, identity, fulfillment, glory etc. This is now our default response on how we handle life (until God gets hold of our hearts). It is a response of rebellious distrust of God.

We may not feel or be fully aware of the depth of our shame, but we are often keenly aware of a need for approval or praise - or when we are disapproved of or rejected i.e. shamed. At the heart of our need for approval and praise is a sense of shame and a desire to avoid it at all costs. 

We always carry with us a sense of rejection (and a fear that our shame can't be fixed if our failures are ever exposed), a sense of restlessness, of being out of the environment we were meant to be in, of being "away from home." 

Our need to constantly be affirmed (and prove) we are significant, important, and loved - i.e. worthy of these - is because we don't feel we are but should be. ³We are in a constant state of shame, no matter how deeply buried it may be or how unconscious we are of it

We may feel good about ourselves in our best moments, but as soon as we mess up - or are simply accused of messing up, the shame - ever lurking under the surface - rushes to the top and rears its ugly head. 

Our failures are devastating because we depend on our successes to feel significant, accepted, and loved - i.e. to feel good about ourselves - instead of looking to God for these things.

Once we get a hold of the fact that we are significant, accepted, and fully loved in Christ, these failures and the fear of them being seen have far less sway over us. The more we believe (abide) in God's love, the less our shame or fears control us and the more we operate from love for God and others. Shame is all about me. Love is about others. 

In Christ, we are free from the need to be approved by others - or even ourselves. As we more fully grasp that we are ⁴approved by the most significant person of all - the very Creator and Sustainer of life and all things - we are increasingly freed from trying to win the approval of others. If He is for us, then who (including ourselves) can be against us?

God constantly seeks to reveal to us how much we depend on something other than him for life (feeling accepted,  loved, and approved). This occurs most often in our pain and struggles. He seeks to strip away our ⁶idols and draw us closer to Him (which usually feels more like death at the time, not a means to life). He is always calling us closer because he knows in Him alone is true and eternal life i.e. to draw us closer is not only for his greater glory but our highest good - our best interest

The maturing process is increasingly turning away from those things we derive our worth (and identity) from and more to Him. God is constantly seeking to help us see that finding life - i.e. a sense of value, meaning, and significance - is only in Him and not the other things we look to and have grown to count and depend on. 

As we mature we come to see – by God's love and Spirit - how much we look to ⁶everything but Him for “life.” 

The only question is will you return to him? Christ has done all that is necessary for you to be perfectly accepted and fully embraced by His Father. It is up to us now to receive (believe) this (His) offer. To not, is to continue on our current path, rejecting His offer and Him i.e. to continue on our path of shame and destruction. 

For a discussion on the meaning of life, click here

For a discussion on pleasing God, click here

For a discussion on good and bad self-confidence, click here

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¹And who is greater, more significant, more valuable and worthy of our respect, honor, and worship then the Creator and Sustainer of love, life, and all things? No one and nothing! For from him through him and to him or all things!

²To continue living in a state of rebellion unchecked by death, only results in increasing destruction by us. 

³I am speaking of humanity in general when in a state of separation from God. We can be and are freed of these things the more we understand, receive and partake of the love of God.

⁴And not only are we approved by the Creator of all things - the most significant person in the universe - but this same person provided for us all that was necessary for that approval. This in great part is why He is so significant.

⁵God's description of us just before we rebelled.

⁶ An idol is anything we value more than God. 

⁷To get an idea of our shame consider having your private thought's or actions played out and posted to a YouTube channel the entire world is subscribed to. Thoughts or acts of anger, lust, fear, disloyalty, lying and hatred and so on we might engage in over the course of a several days. 

Would we be proud of everything revealed or embarrassed to show our face in public? Would people want to embrace us or avoid us after watching? To avoid shame we may go as far as saying any rejection we experience is the fault of others, not our own.