Willpower or affections?

Our desires trump our will (though they are not entirely separate from it)

To will something (simply choose to act) contrary to our affections does not work long term. Willpower alone does not sustain our actions or change our behavior.

This is a willing not because we truly want to do something but because we think we must. This is choosing because we believe we have to choose in order to be approved/accepted/lovable. This is seeking to earn love. 

Since we can never do enough to gain the love we were designed for this leads to burn out. We may press forward with considerable effort for an extended time only to find out no amount of effort gives us what we truly long for nor does it fulfill our deepest desires. 

A Shift

When we recognize we are already approved/accepted/loved in Christ the need to earn the acceptance of others (including God) is no longer necessary; everything within us shifts. This is not something we do, it's something we believe, recognize, acknowledge. 

What needs to change is not our wills but our affections. 

But our affections are not something we can simply will ourselves to have and into existence. They just are. Our affections automatically change once our beliefs about God and ourselves change. 

So where do affections come from? 

They are the result of what we believe is most attractive/beautiful/ significant. 

When we see something beautiful we are naturally drawn to it. This is not something we consciously choose or think about. We simply long for what we believe is most desirable. This is a given. 

We do not choose our desires, we choose what we believe will best meet them.

And what we long for, we pursue/go after. So our affections are central to long-term change but are also directly tied to what we believe is desirable or worthy of our affections. 

Why is something desirable? 

We believe it will give us what we want and/or need.

Why is belief necessary? 

Because we are limited in what we see, know and are able to do. We must trust in order to acquire what we need.

Our belief is based upon our seeing. 

If what is objectively most desirable is hidden from our view we will not desire or pursue it i.e. We will not subjectively experience the desire for it or have the will to go after it. 

If we are lost and dying of thirst and stumble across a muddy, leaf filled puddle, we will gladly drink from it. But if we looked up and saw 50 feet further there was a crystal clear spring fed stream we would find strength (i.e. the willpower) to continue past the puddle to the stream.

And what is it that we want? 

To be valued. To be treated as significant, worthwhile; in a word, loved. Whatever we believe will best provide this is what is most desirable to us.

And why is it we want this?

We are like God who is most valuable. In order to appreciate his value we had be like him i.e. have the ability to appreciate value and experience our own in so doing.  

The basis for change listed in order of priority/importance

* God ...the source of all love and beauty is most lovely, beautiful and desirable above all things

* Our seeing him as he is i.e. lovely, beautiful and desirable (by faith – a work of the Spirit)

* Increasing affections for God as we see him more clearly 

* Pursuit of God (faithfulness/obedience to him) as we recognize he is desirable above everything else

For a further discussion on desires and where they come from click here. 

Pleasing God

The master who said to his servants "...well done, good and faithful servant..." raises the question of when can we and do we please God and how. 

In one sense there is nothing we can do to make ourselves good (lovely/faithful) enough to be accepted by God. We simply are too broken (untrusting and suspicious of God) to ever live a life of complete, uninterrupted love and devotion to him unaided (i.e. on our own) that is equal to (does adequate justice to) who he is (all glorious and worthy of total honor) and what is properly due him (and which he also desires).

We can however - by the power and influence of God - out of his infinite love for us - made accessible by and through his unlimited grace - shed forth in our hearts by his Spirit - live for God's glory. In this way it is possible, and only in this way. This is in response to God and His perfect, infinite love, not the result of self generated effort i.e. willpower.

Are our wills involved? Absolutely! We have a choice and play a vital role in how we honor and please God. But it's a choice of believing (and receiving) or not believing the completeness and fullness of God's perfect love for us.

This is not a choice to will ourselves to "do or be better" e.g. "God, I am really sorry I blew it again. I am determined to do better next time. I'll prove it. Just watch and see." 

Wrong! There is nothing to prove. We all come up short. This is why Christ came!!! If we could honor God according to His glory, Christ's death would not have been necessary.

It is a choice of how much (to what extent) do we believe and receive his love for us. How much do we understand, recognize and accept that "¹it is finished" and there is nothing we will or ever can do to make it more so. It is a choice to receive and accept (bask in and even ²enjoy) his love - even when we blow it. 

And not only so, but the righteousness of Christ is also fully credited to us. If we are in Christ, the ³credit for His perfectly lived life of faithfulness is totally assigned to us - all of it! When God looks at the record of required and perfect faithfulness he sees the deeds of Christ listed as if they were ours. We are now looked upon by God as perfectly righteous/faithful/ moral.

As a result, God's love is now fully fixed (locked in) on us. He and it can never be removed (separated from us) or us from him (it).

Nor can his love be changed or added to, because of what Christ has already done for us. It is not based on what we do (or will do) for him i.e. it is not because we are deserving, but because Christ is. He earned this for us. 

Knowing this is vital to our being empowered to live for him because we can only truly love Him because he first loved us, never the other way around. Our love for (and faithfulness to) him is dependent on his love for us first and our believing and receiving (knowing) this total love. 

We are designed to be respondents to God's love, not initiators of love. God is his own cause (source) of love, we are not. How? Why? Because his love is rooted in the eternal and infinite relationship of love between the Father, Son, and Spirit. In short, we need him, he doesn't need us. 

It is vital we grasp the extent and fullness of God's love in order to be moved to love and desire (have affection for) him in return, over all other desires. The greater and fuller our understanding of this infinite love, the greater and fuller our response and the more honor and glory we bring to him.

And when we do respond (act) in this way, he is well pleased. And he is pleased not only because it brings him great honor (it puts him on greater display so others will be drawn to him) but also because it brings us great joy i.e. he is happy for us because he longs for our best i.e. he loves us. 

Matt 25:14-30

21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’

• For a further discussion on the difference between willpower and affections click here. 

• For a discussion on the difference between God's objective and subjective love and presence click here

• For a discussion on experiencing and participating in God's love click here.

• For a discussion on his love being based solely on grace click 

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Footnotes:

¹"it" being the payment for and removal of all condemnation for our rebellious distrust; which is the essence of all sinful behavior.

²We enjoy the love itself. Of course, we don't enjoy grieving the one who so faithfully loves us (Jesus). However, when we understand nothing stops his love, not even our unfaithfulness, it moves us in greater love and a stronger desire to not grieve him (he is grieved for our sake, not his own). 

Our unfaithfulness only quenches a fuller experience of this unending love, not the love itself. It effects and diminishes us, not God. He remains the same. 

³Isn't it ironic of how offended we get when others receive credit for what we did?

Inspiration

Actions that come forth from the heart of one that trusts the perfect and infinitely loving God are steady (consistent), solid and strong. They come out of a heart resting in the certainty, steadiness (consistency) and absolute reliability of another i.e. In the strength derived from trusting in another's love, power, and wisdom toward them. 

Because the source (God) or object of our trust is steady, so can be the recipient (i.e. his children). The degree to which one believes in the consistency of God's love is the degree to which they will be consistent in the trust and faithfulness to this God of love. 

Actions that flow out of the heart of one who knows they are loved, are not forced. Those actions spring forth from an overflowing heart of one that knows they are infinitely loved, not from the heart of one seeking love and approval. 

These overflowing actions -- that are solid, steady, strong, and not forced -- do not result in pride but in humility, for they are inspired by and the fruit of another's reliability, strength, and kindness, not from the strength of only our willpower. To say it another way, our wills are steeled (fortified) by the one who calls us to follow him. 

·        We trust because of the absolute trustworthiness of the One trusted.

·        We love because of the infinite love of the One who loves us i.e. our love is the fruit of being loved by another i.e. God, the Source of love. 

Actions that cause us to have pride in ourselves are the fruit of self effort - aka the "flesh" - not fruit that springs forth from knowing and trusting we are relentlessly loved by another. 

Actions inspired by God's love and dependability (i.e. trustworthiness) result in humble gratitude to God. They are fruit inspired by him; from who he is  for us. He is the vine, we are the branches. 

Inspiration: 

In - comes from within. 

spiration - comes from the spirit.

i.e. inspiration is being moved by the spirit within us in response to God's Spirit of infinite love toward us. 

Inspiration generally can come either from ¹our spirit or Gods. If from ours only, it is designed to get something by giving something i.e. we give to get. If from God's, it is designed to give something because of what we have already received. 

(Even if it is only from our spirit, it is still from another in the ultimate sense, for we are created by another i.e. by God, in the image of another i.e. God. Everything we have and are is from him. This includes our spirit and all creativity that springs forth from us and out to others).

When actions (or attitudes) flow out of us from the inside they are not forced. They flow freely. They are inspired. 

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¹Some would argue we can be "inspired" by an evil spirit, particularly if we are not indwelt by God's Spirit. In this case I would say our natural abilities are engaged and utilized to create something through the outside influence of an evil spirit, for the purpose of garnering attention to ourselves. Some even deliberately try to summons and utilize this kind of influence for that end. 

Any unhealthy promotion of self, in itself, is opening up ourselves to be influenced by an "evil spirit." Evil being anything that causes harm to others (God or men) or ourselves. Actions solely for our benefit do not usually benefit others - unless it is some kind of co-dependent relationship. 

But even in a co-dependent relationship, the motive by each partner in the relationship is to get something from the other, not solely to give something to the other. It is a mutual using of the other to get what each needs and seeks. Co-dependent relationships work as long as each feels overall they are getting as much or more than they give. Once either feels they are giving more than giving, it falls apart. 

A truly loving relationship is focused on the benefit of the other out of the strength of knowing they are infinitely loved individually by the Creator i.e. a truly loving relationship can not occur without being plugged in and empowered by the infinite Source of love.

Though there my be short term gain in self exaltation and promotion there is long term harm and destruction. We simply were never designed to be - and never will be - all we are created to be through and by self effort. 

We can only truly (i.e. permanently and fully) flourish when we are operating by, under, and in the power and influence of God and his love - i.e. by God's Spirit - not in an effort to acquire love. 

Morality or Jesus?

The church needs to get away from the ¹morality drill. Morality should not be our focus. Why? Because without God's enabling, none of us can truly be moral.

It's not that morality doesn't matter. It absolutely does. However, none of us can produce a truly moral life ²simply and merely by willpower. It is the fruit of something far deeper; something missing. 

Morality -- i.e. choosing to live according to God's commandments -- is not the cause of God's acceptance of us but the fruit of it. So why should we ask or expect the world to do what none of us can do on our own, Christian or otherwise? Morality is the RESULT of being loved by God first and then loving and honoring God in response - which also involves loving others as we wish to be loved.

Christ said, "if you LOVE me, you WILL keep my commandments" but instead, we somehow hear "I must keep God's commandments so He will love me." Sorry, but this is not his message. Read it again slowly and in its context. Morality shouldn't be our focus, the greatness, the goodness, and the love of God for us, and our response of love should be.

When we see God as he truly is -- all-loving, all-wise, and all-powerful -- for and to those who trust Him and that He is always present with us, this causes us to ²want to seek to honor him in our words and deeds i.e. to want to live morally Isa 6:1-8. We don't seek moral living as our primary aim. When we see him as he is, "high and lifted up," -- i.e. of tremendous value, beauty, majesty, wisdom, etc., loving God with all we are and have will be our primary desire and aim. In fact, this statement itself; that he should be our primary desire and aim, is a ¹moral statement and the true essence of morality.

We are not to focus on how poorly we or others are behaving but on how infinitely loving God is and with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength and our neighbor as ourselves in response. Focusing only on morals causes us to take our eyes off of God. It is the cart before the horse.

People are tired of moralistic preaching and its condescending hypocritical message of do what I say, not what I do; of us expecting and demanding of nonbelievers something even we Christians cannot -- and do not -- do ourselves unless moved by God. The truth is NO ONE is or can ever be moral enough to be approved by God. Christian or otherwise.

So why are we trying to get or expecting the world to be moral? This is indication of our lack of understanding how morally bankrupt we all are. ³Morality is not what they need. They need Jesus first. When they fall in love with Jesus everything else follows. Then and only then will they want to honor him with their words and deeds.

All the "Christians" that are always preaching or demanding morality from an unbelieving world needs to please stop.

Instead, we are all called to fall passionately in love with God. To love God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength is the greatest commandment for good reason. Don't we think this is convicting enough or a pursuit worthy enough of everything we are and have? Yet no one does this unaided by God's - Spirit, not even the most devoted among us. 

There is a reason Christ said on these two do all the other commandments hang. In fact, it's entirely dishonoring to God to focus on moral behavior because it brings attention to us, not him i.e. "look at how moral I am. You should be moral too"

Why? Will morality save us? NO!!! It's precisely because we are not moral and never can be moral enough to ever be approved by God, that God sent his Son to do what we could never do for ourselves; to provide and then offer to GIVE us a perfect moral status. Yes, give it! This is why it's called "good news." It is not something we do but something declared, if we'll accept it. 

We don't have to be moral in order to be totally accepted and fully loved by God because Christ did that for us. He was moral on our behalf and he bore the complete and total consequences for our immorality. We certainly need to recognize we dishonor God by our words and deeds but that is totally different from being moral in order to gain/win/earn God's approval. 

The truth is we must be 100% perfectly moral for God to ever accept us 100%. Well, guess what? That's never going to happen and that is precisely why Christ came and died. To provide morality for us and offer it to us as a gift.

For several posts on the legitimate role the law plays in a believer's life click here. 

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¹For a further discussion on the grounds or basis for morality click here.

²I am not saying we should abandon morality itself, but we should not expect morality from a person who does not know God and is not empowered by God's love to live morally. For the significance and meaning of morality click here.

Php 2:12  Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13  for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. 

³I am not saying morality isn't important, or there is no right or wrong. There is wrongdoing that causes real harm and should be corrected. But this is more a societal issue i.e. it addresses our horizontal relationships with our fellow man, not our vertical relationship with God as far as His acceptance of us.  

I am speaking of our personal relationship with God. I am saying the morality we all need to be good enough to be restored to God we can never produce. We are simply too morally bankrupt to ever be perfectly moral. True morality is the fruit of godliness not the cause of it. Godliness is the fruit of loving God. Loving God is the fruit of him loving us first. 

Perfect morality has to be provided for us and given to us as a gift. And since it does, this is the message we must bring others; the good news, not "stop being bad...and start acting good..." Rather we must declare we are all bad and can never be good enough. None of us. The heart of where we all drop the ball is we don't love and honor God according to his true majesty, beauty, and honor. All other immoral behavior is simply the fruit of not loving God as we ought and He deserves.

Obedience… drudgery or delight, part 2

The reason obedience feels like drudgery or hard work for many professing Christians is there is no "want to" in their actions. It's a "have to." It's performance based behavior. It's ¹"do it or else..."  

We don't have complete confidence and trust in God's love for us to follow his directions with delight yet. This comes over time as we get a fuller/clearer view of Christ and all He did for us. But also after trusting in, seeing and experiencing God's love in various difficult circumstances. As our trust grows, so does our increased willingness and desire to obey.  

In 1Jn 5:2,3 we are told

"...By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments.  For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome."

When love is driving our actions, the doing/acting isn't a burden, drudgery, or hard work. It is actions from the heart, not out of shear "willpower." We "do" because we want to out of love for God and a desire to honor Him. This is the oil, if you will, that lubricates all our actions. It keeps things from wearing down, heating, and tearing up. 

When I used to surf, it was always a strenuous workout. I would usually be out for 2 or 3 hours per session. When I was done, I was hungry, exhausted, and probably 1 or 2 pounds lighter. But I LOVED it! Did I exert myself? Big time! Was it work? Well, in a sense. I definitely exerted a great deal of energy and effort, but it didn't feel like "work" because it was something I loved to do. ²It was something I delighted in.

The following passage captures the essence of this: 

Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation (deliverance from behavior contrary to God's will and design) with ³fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose. - Phil 2:12-13

When God's love gets a hold of us, it creates the "want" to pursue him. If there is no "want to" we need to take a hard look at whether we are truly his child that understands and believes in God's loves. 

The solution? Ask God to help you see more clearly what Christ did for you and why he did it i.e. fall more in love with Jesus!

Sometimes, the only way we experience God's love is to step out in faith on God's character and claims (promises) - regardless of how we feel - and love others. This is the essence of obedience to his greatest commandment to love him with all our hearts and our neighbors as ourselves. 

His character/love/wisdom has already been demonstrated to us by giving us Christ. This alone is enough when we really see and believe it. To step out in faith releases our experience of his love to us and through us. Not his actual love - which is already fully secured for us in Christ.

He who is forgiven much loves much.

And Jesus answering said to him, "Simon, I have something to say to you." And he answered, "Say it, Teacher."  

"A certain moneylender had two debtors. One owed five hundred denarii, and the other fifty. When they could not pay, he canceled the debt of both. Now, which of them will love him more?" 

Simon answered, "The one, I suppose, for whom he canceled the larger debt." And he said to him, "You have judged rightly."

 

...Therefore I tell you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven--for she loved much. But he who is forgiven little, loves little." - Jesus Christ - Luk 7:40-43;47 

The truth is anyone who puts their trust in Christ is "forgiven much." Our problem is we don't have a full understanding of the greatness of our offense, how desperately we need God's forgiveness, how totally impossible it is for us to be righteous enough to be accepted by God, and what lengths God went to, to provide the solution to our otherwise impossible dilemma. The more we see the greatness of our offence and the completeness of God's solution, the more in love with God we become. We love much because we see how we have been forgiven much. 

This is not just at our entry into God's reign of love over us - i.e. His kingdom - but at the heart of our maturing and where growth lies; in seeing the infinite extent of his forgiveness and great love for us and the extent of our absolute need for it. The power and influence of this good news - the gospel - in our everyday behavior is not only ongoing but increases over time.

For further discussion, click here. 

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¹or else you will be condemned, rejected, make God mad, etc. 

²obedience isn't always fun (often it is the opposite) but we know the outcome of it will be "fun" later, if not now. This is our hope. 

And this hope empowers us and makes it fun (rewarding beyond comprehension) in a real and vital way. It is living through dying; it is finding our life (truly and later) by losing it (now). It is dying to what we naturally want and living to honor God - which is ultimately best for us and most rewarding long term, if not always immediately rewarding.

³Why fear and trembling? Is it a fear of condemnation and rejection by God? No. It is a fear of the consequences of going contrary to God's design and dishonoring God after He did everything necessary to honor us. 

#Wantto #haveto #Drudgery #thotsaboutGod #thoughtsaboutGod

Obedience, the fruit of abiding.

To be ¹told we should be loving is true but alone it is not helpful. Being loving is not something we can by mere willpower, it comes from who we are. 

And who is that?  If we are in Christ, we are beloved children of God.

When we know (believe) we are loved, cherished, and valued, we will be loving. Being perfectly and infinitely loved frees us to love others. To use a biblical analogy if we abide - be, dwell, live - in the Vine we will bear much fruit. Without the love of Christ driving our conduct, we can do nothing truly honoring to God (Jn 15:5,9). We are designed for love and to love others, we only lack the power, or I should say we lack the love that empowers us to love others sacrificially.

That power is outside us and comes to us from the Source of love, i.e. God. When it does, it frees us from the need to be loved by others because we are already fully loved

by God in and through Christ, the vine. 

To follow the analogy, God the Father is the caretaker of the vine, the vine is the source of spiritual nutrients-sap to the branches. The branches bear fruit as the nutrients (love) flows through the Vine into the branches. As a result, instead of looking to others to meet our need for love - approval etc - we are freed by God's love - we can now look outward and not inward - and no longer need to tend to our own need for love because God already tends to it. And because he does we can now see the need of others and be the conduit of God's love to them. God's love for us, when we truly believe and receive it, frees us to love others i.e. fruit.

Knowing this is humbling. If or when people are inclined to praise us for our loving character or good deeds we recognize how totally bankrupt we are without God loving us 1st. Without Christ, we can not love as God loves or as we naturally love ourselves. Our actions are not flowing out or giving to others, but are designed instead to "get" or take from others. In fact, we cannot receive God's love until we see how desperately we are in need of it and how impossible it is for us to love others sacrificially - i.e. truly - without receiving God's love first. Only he can satisfy our need for love, which frees us to love others. Truly, without him, without our constant abiding in his love, we can do nothing (Jn 15:5) i.e. we can not love the way God loves.

For a further discussion on being vs doing click here

For a discussion on how our need for love is infinite click here

For a discussion on how conflict is rooted in the absence of love click here

For a discussion on how God has already proved his love click here

For a discussion on how the essence of our work in sanctification is to believe click here.

________________________________________Footnotes:

¹We think these are only words of obedience, but they are words of love and promise. Promise of what? Of his steadfast love. That he is the Vine through which this love and life flows to us causing us to be fruitful - obedient. When we believe these words we bear much fruit.

A conversation regarding obedience

In Nov. of 2017 I posted the following on Facebook. 

"Why do we pursue God, out of love or fear? 

Both! 

Out of love because he first loved us. 

Out of fear because operating contrary to God's design (how and why he made us) always has an adverse effect (if not immediately, eventually)."

This resulted in an instructive conversation between Rick (a FB friend) and I. I am posting that conversation below to illustrate the misunderstanding, tension, and confusion around our pursuit of (obedience to) God in the hope of clarifying some of the dynamics of that pursuit.

Now to Rick's response and the conversation that followed:

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Rick: 

You mean you aren't a Christian Hedonist? :/ I'm not either :)

Other valid reasons to seek God...

God exists and is the source of all meaning, purpose, and value. Without God, there would be none of these in an objective sense.

God is the ultimate authority over all creation and deserves our utmost obedience to his will, his pleasure and his purpose.

God is the ultimate worth and he is worthy of our praise and worship. Our surrender to God's will is the first step towards truly worshipping God.

Jim: (In response, I sent Rick the following blog post on the dynamics of what moves us to pursue and obey God)

http://thotsaboutgod.blogspot.com/2017/02/an-anatomy-of-motivation.html

Rick quotes from the above blog article adding his comments below...

Rick: 

"An anatomy of motivation - There are two overall but opposite approaches we observe in scripture regarding our motivation to obedience. All underlying forms of motivation fall under these two. These two broader areas are...

· positive motivation
· negative motivation"

His added comments...

- These two categories of motivation are based on the idea that we can expect something good or we can expect something bad. Another option that I believe is important is to acknowledge the authority of God as a basis of motive. In this respect, it is not so much what we personally expect but who God objectively is that forms the basis. If we believe God exists, we can obey God simply because of God's authority, without even contemplating what we personally expect. For example. We are commanded to submit to God and obey God. I can do this simply because God has clearly commanded it and not necessarily for any other reason. Do you agree?

Jim:

Yes, but I believe there's a bit more to obedience than simple willpower. If you haven't read the rest of the article at the above link it hints at this. 

Paul also points out it is God who enables us to choose and desire to pursue him in vs 13 of the following: 

"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." Php 2:12-13

How does he do so? By appealing to self-interest. For example, we are told in Heb 11:6 "And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him." The appeal of this verse is not just that God exists but OUR (us/self) being rewarded. 

Another example is "to gain your life you must lose it." What's the appeal? Us gaining life. The verse simply tells us the best way that happens is by losing our life i.e. we don't find our life by seeking life but by seeking God who is life. 

There is a difference between self-interest and self-ISHNESS. Not distinguishing these causes confusion. Several posts on my blog touch on this. If interested let me know.

Rick: 

Those are interesting verses and I would not be opposed to reading your articles. Because there are so many scriptural aspects of obedience to God, to me this implies that there are many valid motives that can overlap and are not mutually exclusive. I believe that there is a danger of taking a verse like Heb 11:6 and suggesting that this one verse codifies our approach towards obedience to God. For example, there is the motive of love of God that Jesus stated was a valid motive:

"If you love me, keep my commands." John 14:16

The word love is from the Greek "agape" which is translated as a self-less benevolent and giving type of love. So in other words, our motive for obedience based on this verse is not self-interest but is based on pleasing God.

Jim:

Love is THE key motive to obedience. So the question becomes how and when do we love God i.e. what is the cause of (stirs up) our love for him. Scripture clearly teaches our love (the key motive "behind" obedience) is a RESPONSE to his love for us. 1 Jn 4:10 "In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins." In 1Jn 4:19 John goes on to say, "We love because he first loved us." We are not the initiators of love, God is.

This is also implied in John 15. It says without me "you can do nothing..." (vs 5) i.e. we can not bear fruit on our own. Fruit in the context is loving God and others (vs 12,17). So our loving God and others is based on and caused by our abiding in his love for us (vs 9). We can not love as God loves - i.e. sacrificially - otherwise. To say it another way, we are not the cause or source of love but the conduits of it.

Re: the Hebrews passage...it is simply an example, not a proof text. Self-interest is implied throughout scripture. His great offer is eternal life to us i.e. our eternal life. Even fear of the consequences for disobedience is the fear of US suffering. We do nothing apart from self-interest. 

Christ's very appeal to loving our neighbor is love for ourselves "...love your neighbor AS you love yourself..." He doesn't condemn our love of self (our desiring what is best for ourselves) he assumes it and makes his appeal based on that assumption.

The issue isn't our wanting what is best for us, it's how is that best accomplished. Through self-effort or in and by God i.e. through his love for us. 

I think the issue is we don't realize our greatest joy is IN God and recognizing the greatness of his glory i.e. our greatest joy (pleasure) and God's highest glory are not in opposition to each other but tied together. To say it another way, pursuing God and his highest glory IS our greatest joy (pleasure).

Rick: 

Jim Deal - "Self-interest is implied throughout scripture. His great offer is eternal life for US i.e. OUR eternal life." ...Christ's very appeal to loving our neighbor is love for ourselves "...love your neighbor AS you love yourself..." He doesn't condemn our love of self (our desiring what is best for us)

I'm sorry, but implications of our self-interest are always subservient to the interest of pleasing God in the whole of scripture, and plainly commanded as such, and to place our self-interest on equal grounds with pleasing God I believe is shown to be actually heretical based on traditional interpretations.

To take your first point, eternal life is epitomized by relationship together with God: "Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." (John 17:3) And relationship is defined as "being one" in the spirit: "I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one" (John 17:22) --- These verses do not imply that eternal life is based on focusing on the self or that the motive for eternal life is self-interest, rather, the focus is on interrelationship and unity for the glory of God, that is, mainly for GOD'S sake, not our own.

In your second point, you reference the second part of a two-part command and left out the most important first command: Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[a] 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] There is no commandment greater than these.” (Mark 12:30-31)

Matthew Henry clarifies the primacy of scriptural value:

"As we must, therefore, love God BETTER THAN ourselves, because he is Jehovah, a being infinitely better than we are, and must love him with all our heart, because he is one Lord, and there is no other like him; so we must love our neighbor AS OURSELVES, because he is of the same nature with ourselves;" (emphasis added). Here is Matthew Henry's full commentary on this verse:

2. That the second great commandment is, to love our neighbor as ourselves (v. 31), as truly and sincerely as we love ourselves, and in the same instances, and we must show it by doing as we would be done by. As we must therefore love God better than ourselves, because he is Jehovah, a being infinitely better than we are, and must love him with all our heart, because he is one Lord, and there is no other like him; so we must love our neighbour as ourselves, because he is of the same nature with ourselves; our hearts are fashioned alike, and my neighbour and myself are of one body, of one society, that of the world of mankind; and if a fellow-Christian, and of the same sacred society, the obligation is the stronger. Hath not one God created us? Mal. 2:10. Has not one Christ redeemed us?"

If we try to ignore or deny a direct commandment, that clearly states pleasing God (with others-centered agape love) is the highest commandment, and offer that self-interest is on par with or even above the command to please God, how is this not patently heterical?

"our greatest joy (pleasure) and God's highest glory are not in opposition to each other but tied together."

This is basically a toned-down re-phrasing of Piper's maxim. However, the phrase "God is not most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in him" is misleading because the true measure of God's glory is not our personal satisfaction. The highest measure of God's glory is our conformity with God's nature and will, which is most emphasized by conforming to God's nature and will, which is based on agape love and holiness.

Scripture advocates worshipping God in spirit and in truth:

"God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” (John 4:24).

Piper completely discounts many critical aspects of worship, such as affirming and meditating on truth, and heretically demands that the worship of God is based on emotions as an end in and of themselves:

"It can be done only when spontaneous affections arise in the heart. And these affections for God are an end in themselves. They are the essence of eternal worship" (p92 DG)

Jim, I am reading a brief but excellent new book on Piper titled "Christian Hedonism? A biblical examination of John Piper's teaching" by ES Williams, and I believe that it might help you to glean from his research some of the many critical scriptural errors of CH.

Jim:

Rick W Thanks for the feedback.

I don't disagree with anything you said.

Everything must be subservient to God simply because he is the cause of all things (i.e. a more than sufficient reason if there were no other one) "... For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen..." (Rom 11:36)

Nothing in scripture (regarding our obedience) is based on FOCUSING on self.

It sounds like you are equating self-interest with selfishness and that our interests are ABOVE Gods. I've said neither.

What I am saying is our (self's) best interest is IN God. God is our (self's) best interest.

My point is in order for us (self) to know and enjoy God, "self" is not set aside but fully engaged. We (us, self) give God the greatest glory when we (self) find him our greatest joy, treasure, pursuit etc. This isn't putting self above God at all. It is self delighting IN God above all things, vs self delighting in created things over and above God the Creator (our delighting in creation above God is the essence of self ISHNESS. It is seeking to make life work WITHOUT God i.e. through what I can obtain by myself and solely for myself. It is seeking meaning, purpose, joy, etc independent of God for my glory, not his).

However our (self) finding God to be more glorious than anything else "shows him off" (brings attention to his infinite glory, i.e. glorifies him). To believe and then act as if something is more valuable than God, dishonors him. When we find God our greatest delight and pursuit we are telling others, God is more important to me than anything else and therefore could be to you as well.

Regarding the greatest commandment, this actually underscores the point I am seeking to make. Loving our neighbor flows out of loving God first (which is the fruit of his love for us). It all starts with God, is through God and is for God i.e. for his glory e.g. Rom 11:36 

End of our FB conversation. 

In this conversation, we are dealing with very nuanced points. Facebook is generally not the best place for in-depth discussion and contemplation of such things. I say this because after looking this over there are things I did not address that I could have. Therefore I offer these additional thoughts.

Regarding obedience to God out of fear i.e. respect for God, even this is based on "self-interest" i.e. I wish to honor God out of respect for him and because he is worthy of all honor/respect but why do I respect Him?  Because he is all-wise, all-powerful, and just and I don't want something bad happening to me (self) if I don't honor him as such. This isn't selfish. It is rooted in our very being as God's image-bearer. Our being a creature who desires our own best interest is actually necessary in order for us to be able to enjoy and honor God who is most high and most delightful. 

For more on this point click here. 

Rick said, "I'm sorry, but implications of our self-interest are always subservient to the interest of pleasing God in the whole of scripture, and plainly commanded as such, and to place our self-interest on equal grounds with pleasing God I believe is shown to be actually heretical based on traditional interpretations."

This is a common misunderstanding and is hardest to grasp. God's highest glory and our greatest joy are not in competition or opposed to each other or that we can only do one or the other. So there are no "equal grounds." They are tied together but not equal because everything must start with God. Nothing happens if God were not all glorious. However, our greatest joy is God's highest glory. The more we exalt him - recognize His glory - the more we experience Him as He is and the greater our joy becomes. Joy is the result of recognizing and acting upon God's greatness - His infinite glory. We find him to be our greatest joy when we lift him up (glorify him) as the highest/greatest (most delightful) being of all beings or things and the only one worthy of our honor and greatest delight. This is not an "either/or" scenario. God's glory and our delight in God go hand in hand but in that order. It always must start with God, not us. If God were not the greatest of all beings, we would not and could not find the great joy that is God himself. And we are wired this way because this is how God designed us, so we might share in His glory as He does as Father and Son in by and through the Spirit. To enjoy God most we have to be most like Him without being God i.e. we are in His image.

Rick said:

Another option that I believe is important is to acknowledge the authority of God as a basis of motive. In this respect, it is not so much what we personally expect but who God objectively is that forms the basis. If we believe God exists, we can obey God simply because of God's authority, without even contemplating what we personally expect. For example. We are commanded to submit to God and obey God. I can do this simply because God has clearly commanded it and not necessarily for any other reason. Do you agree?"

Whether Rick deliberately intends to, the implication of what he is proposing is we have within ourselves the spiritual strength to obey God by simply willing ourselves to do so without God empowering us i.e. apart from his Love/Spirit. This is placing our will as the key (central) to obedience instead of God. However, God is the driving force behind our obedience, not our will. It is God who works in us "...both to will and to work for his good pleasure." Our will is an intricate part of obedience but it is not the central part, God is. Our will is vital in deciding (choosing) to believe God is who He claims to be and does (did and will do) what He promises/claims He will do. But this is choosing to believe is anchored into who God is generally and who He is for us specifically. It is based on faith in the character of God,  not faith based on faith in itself or how great our will is.

For a further discussion on this point click here.

The following verses clearly show the will and desire to obey God come from God, not us. Yes, it is our desires but desires that God "works" in and through us by revealing to us His great glory. 

Philippians 2:12-13 English Standard Version (ESV) 

12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Though we are in God's image which allows us (gives us the capacity) to honor and enjoy God, absent God's Spirit/Love we are dead to God. We are not the source/cause/initiators of sacrificial love. Only God is. We can only love sacrificially when we know God loves us sacrificially and "has our back" i.e. God honors and rewards us and all our actions when done for his honor.

For more discussions on obedience click here.  

For more discussion on how our worth is tied to God's click here.