A conversation regarding obedience

In Nov. of 2017 I posted the following on Facebook. 

"Why do we pursue God, out of love or fear? 

Both! 

Out of love because he first loved us. 

Out of fear because operating contrary to God's design (how and why he made us) always has an adverse effect (if not immediately, eventually)."

This resulted in an instructive conversation between Rick (a FB friend) and I. I am posting that conversation below to illustrate the misunderstanding, tension, and confusion around our pursuit of (obedience to) God in the hope of clarifying some of the dynamics of that pursuit.

Now to Rick's response and the conversation that followed:

___________________________________________________________

Rick: 

You mean you aren't a Christian Hedonist? :/ I'm not either :)

Other valid reasons to seek God...

God exists and is the source of all meaning, purpose, and value. Without God, there would be none of these in an objective sense.

God is the ultimate authority over all creation and deserves our utmost obedience to his will, his pleasure and his purpose.

God is the ultimate worth and he is worthy of our praise and worship. Our surrender to God's will is the first step towards truly worshipping God.

Jim: (In response, I sent Rick the following blog post on the dynamics of what moves us to pursue and obey God)

http://thotsaboutgod.blogspot.com/2017/02/an-anatomy-of-motivation.html

Rick quotes from the above blog article adding his comments below...

Rick: 

"An anatomy of motivation - There are two overall but opposite approaches we observe in scripture regarding our motivation to obedience. All underlying forms of motivation fall under these two. These two broader areas are...

· positive motivation
· negative motivation"

His added comments...

- These two categories of motivation are based on the idea that we can expect something good or we can expect something bad. Another option that I believe is important is to acknowledge the authority of God as a basis of motive. In this respect, it is not so much what we personally expect but who God objectively is that forms the basis. If we believe God exists, we can obey God simply because of God's authority, without even contemplating what we personally expect. For example. We are commanded to submit to God and obey God. I can do this simply because God has clearly commanded it and not necessarily for any other reason. Do you agree?

Jim:

Yes, but I believe there's a bit more to obedience than simple willpower. If you haven't read the rest of the article at the above link it hints at this. 

Paul also points out it is God who enables us to choose and desire to pursue him in vs 13 of the following: 

"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." Php 2:12-13

How does he do so? By appealing to self-interest. For example, we are told in Heb 11:6 "And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him." The appeal of this verse is not just that God exists but OUR (us/self) being rewarded. 

Another example is "to gain your life you must lose it." What's the appeal? Us gaining life. The verse simply tells us the best way that happens is by losing our life i.e. we don't find our life by seeking life but by seeking God who is life. 

There is a difference between self-interest and self-ISHNESS. Not distinguishing these causes confusion. Several posts on my blog touch on this. If interested let me know.

Rick: 

Those are interesting verses and I would not be opposed to reading your articles. Because there are so many scriptural aspects of obedience to God, to me this implies that there are many valid motives that can overlap and are not mutually exclusive. I believe that there is a danger of taking a verse like Heb 11:6 and suggesting that this one verse codifies our approach towards obedience to God. For example, there is the motive of love of God that Jesus stated was a valid motive:

"If you love me, keep my commands." John 14:16

The word love is from the Greek "agape" which is translated as a self-less benevolent and giving type of love. So in other words, our motive for obedience based on this verse is not self-interest but is based on pleasing God.

Jim:

Love is THE key motive to obedience. So the question becomes how and when do we love God i.e. what is the cause of (stirs up) our love for him. Scripture clearly teaches our love (the key motive "behind" obedience) is a RESPONSE to his love for us. 1 Jn 4:10 "In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins." In 1Jn 4:19 John goes on to say, "We love because he first loved us." We are not the initiators of love, God is.

This is also implied in John 15. It says without me "you can do nothing..." (vs 5) i.e. we can not bear fruit on our own. Fruit in the context is loving God and others (vs 12,17). So our loving God and others is based on and caused by our abiding in his love for us (vs 9). We can not love as God loves - i.e. sacrificially - otherwise. To say it another way, we are not the cause or source of love but the conduits of it.

Re: the Hebrews passage...it is simply an example, not a proof text. Self-interest is implied throughout scripture. His great offer is eternal life to us i.e. our eternal life. Even fear of the consequences for disobedience is the fear of US suffering. We do nothing apart from self-interest. 

Christ's very appeal to loving our neighbor is love for ourselves "...love your neighbor AS you love yourself..." He doesn't condemn our love of self (our desiring what is best for ourselves) he assumes it and makes his appeal based on that assumption.

The issue isn't our wanting what is best for us, it's how is that best accomplished. Through self-effort or in and by God i.e. through his love for us. 

I think the issue is we don't realize our greatest joy is IN God and recognizing the greatness of his glory i.e. our greatest joy (pleasure) and God's highest glory are not in opposition to each other but tied together. To say it another way, pursuing God and his highest glory IS our greatest joy (pleasure).

Rick: 

Jim Deal - "Self-interest is implied throughout scripture. His great offer is eternal life for US i.e. OUR eternal life." ...Christ's very appeal to loving our neighbor is love for ourselves "...love your neighbor AS you love yourself..." He doesn't condemn our love of self (our desiring what is best for us)

I'm sorry, but implications of our self-interest are always subservient to the interest of pleasing God in the whole of scripture, and plainly commanded as such, and to place our self-interest on equal grounds with pleasing God I believe is shown to be actually heretical based on traditional interpretations.

To take your first point, eternal life is epitomized by relationship together with God: "Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." (John 17:3) And relationship is defined as "being one" in the spirit: "I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one" (John 17:22) --- These verses do not imply that eternal life is based on focusing on the self or that the motive for eternal life is self-interest, rather, the focus is on interrelationship and unity for the glory of God, that is, mainly for GOD'S sake, not our own.

In your second point, you reference the second part of a two-part command and left out the most important first command: Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[a] 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] There is no commandment greater than these.” (Mark 12:30-31)

Matthew Henry clarifies the primacy of scriptural value:

"As we must, therefore, love God BETTER THAN ourselves, because he is Jehovah, a being infinitely better than we are, and must love him with all our heart, because he is one Lord, and there is no other like him; so we must love our neighbor AS OURSELVES, because he is of the same nature with ourselves;" (emphasis added). Here is Matthew Henry's full commentary on this verse:

2. That the second great commandment is, to love our neighbor as ourselves (v. 31), as truly and sincerely as we love ourselves, and in the same instances, and we must show it by doing as we would be done by. As we must therefore love God better than ourselves, because he is Jehovah, a being infinitely better than we are, and must love him with all our heart, because he is one Lord, and there is no other like him; so we must love our neighbour as ourselves, because he is of the same nature with ourselves; our hearts are fashioned alike, and my neighbour and myself are of one body, of one society, that of the world of mankind; and if a fellow-Christian, and of the same sacred society, the obligation is the stronger. Hath not one God created us? Mal. 2:10. Has not one Christ redeemed us?"

If we try to ignore or deny a direct commandment, that clearly states pleasing God (with others-centered agape love) is the highest commandment, and offer that self-interest is on par with or even above the command to please God, how is this not patently heterical?

"our greatest joy (pleasure) and God's highest glory are not in opposition to each other but tied together."

This is basically a toned-down re-phrasing of Piper's maxim. However, the phrase "God is not most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in him" is misleading because the true measure of God's glory is not our personal satisfaction. The highest measure of God's glory is our conformity with God's nature and will, which is most emphasized by conforming to God's nature and will, which is based on agape love and holiness.

Scripture advocates worshipping God in spirit and in truth:

"God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” (John 4:24).

Piper completely discounts many critical aspects of worship, such as affirming and meditating on truth, and heretically demands that the worship of God is based on emotions as an end in and of themselves:

"It can be done only when spontaneous affections arise in the heart. And these affections for God are an end in themselves. They are the essence of eternal worship" (p92 DG)

Jim, I am reading a brief but excellent new book on Piper titled "Christian Hedonism? A biblical examination of John Piper's teaching" by ES Williams, and I believe that it might help you to glean from his research some of the many critical scriptural errors of CH.

Jim:

Rick W Thanks for the feedback.

I don't disagree with anything you said.

Everything must be subservient to God simply because he is the cause of all things (i.e. a more than sufficient reason if there were no other one) "... For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen..." (Rom 11:36)

Nothing in scripture (regarding our obedience) is based on FOCUSING on self.

It sounds like you are equating self-interest with selfishness and that our interests are ABOVE Gods. I've said neither.

What I am saying is our (self's) best interest is IN God. God is our (self's) best interest.

My point is in order for us (self) to know and enjoy God, "self" is not set aside but fully engaged. We (us, self) give God the greatest glory when we (self) find him our greatest joy, treasure, pursuit etc. This isn't putting self above God at all. It is self delighting IN God above all things, vs self delighting in created things over and above God the Creator (our delighting in creation above God is the essence of self ISHNESS. It is seeking to make life work WITHOUT God i.e. through what I can obtain by myself and solely for myself. It is seeking meaning, purpose, joy, etc independent of God for my glory, not his).

However our (self) finding God to be more glorious than anything else "shows him off" (brings attention to his infinite glory, i.e. glorifies him). To believe and then act as if something is more valuable than God, dishonors him. When we find God our greatest delight and pursuit we are telling others, God is more important to me than anything else and therefore could be to you as well.

Regarding the greatest commandment, this actually underscores the point I am seeking to make. Loving our neighbor flows out of loving God first (which is the fruit of his love for us). It all starts with God, is through God and is for God i.e. for his glory e.g. Rom 11:36 

End of our FB conversation. 

In this conversation, we are dealing with very nuanced points. Facebook is generally not the best place for in-depth discussion and contemplation of such things. I say this because after looking this over there are things I did not address that I could have. Therefore I offer these additional thoughts.

Regarding obedience to God out of fear i.e. respect for God, even this is based on "self-interest" i.e. I wish to honor God out of respect for him and because he is worthy of all honor/respect but why do I respect Him?  Because he is all-wise, all-powerful, and just and I don't want something bad happening to me (self) if I don't honor him as such. This isn't selfish. It is rooted in our very being as God's image-bearer. Our being a creature who desires our own best interest is actually necessary in order for us to be able to enjoy and honor God who is most high and most delightful. 

For more on this point click here. 

Rick said, "I'm sorry, but implications of our self-interest are always subservient to the interest of pleasing God in the whole of scripture, and plainly commanded as such, and to place our self-interest on equal grounds with pleasing God I believe is shown to be actually heretical based on traditional interpretations."

This is a common misunderstanding and is hardest to grasp. God's highest glory and our greatest joy are not in competition or opposed to each other and we can only do one or the other. So there are no "equal grounds." They are tied together but not equal because everything must start with God. Nothing happens if God were not all glorious. However, our greatest joy is God's highest glory. The more we exalt him - recognize His glory - the more we experience Him as He is and the greater our joy becomes. Joy is the result of recognizing and acting upon God's greatness - His infinite glory. We find him to be our greatest joy when we lift him up (glorify him) as the highest/greatest (most delightful) being of all beings or things and the only one worthy of our honor and greatest delight. This is not an "either/or" scenario. God's glory and our delight in God go hand in hand but in that order. It always must start with God, not us. If God were not the greatest of all beings, we would not and could not find the great joy that is God himself. And we are wired this way because this is how God designed us, so we might share in His glory as He does as Father and Son in by and through the Spirit. To enjoy God most we have to be most like Him without being God i.e. we are in His image.

Rick said:

Another option that I believe is important is to acknowledge the authority of God as a basis of motive. In this respect, it is not so much what we personally expect but who God objectively is that forms the basis. If we believe God exists, we can obey God simply because of God's authority, without even contemplating what we personally expect. For example. We are commanded to submit to God and obey God. I can do this simply because God has clearly commanded it and not necessarily for any other reason. Do you agree?"

Whether Rick deliberately intends to, the implication of what he is proposing is we have within ourselves the spiritual strength to obey God by simply willing ourselves to do so without God empowering us i.e. apart from his Love/Spirit. This is placing our will as the key (central) to obedience instead of God. However, God is the driving force behind our obedience, not our will. It is God who works in us "...both to will and to work for his good pleasure." Our will is an intricate part of obedience but it is not the central part, God is. Our will is vital in deciding (choosing) to believe God is who He claims to be and does (did and will do) what He promises/claims He will do. But this is choosing to believe is anchored into who God is generally and who He is for us specifically. It is based on faith in the character of God,  not faith based on faith in itself or how great our will is.

For a further discussion on this point click here.

The following verses clearly show the will and desire to obey God come from God, not us. Yes, it is our desires but desires that God "works" in and through us by revealing to us His great glory. 

Philippians 2:12-13 English Standard Version (ESV) 

12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Though we are in God's image which allows us (gives us the capacity) to honor and enjoy God, absent God's Spirit/Love we are dead to God. We are not the source/cause/initiators of sacrificial love. Only God is. We can only love sacrificially when we know God loves us sacrificially and "has our back" i.e. God honors and rewards us and all our actions when done for his honor.

For more discussions on obedience click here.  

For more discussion on how our worth is tied to God's click here.