Tuesday, April 24, 2018

confidence...good or bad

Two kinds of confidence. 

There is 

·        confidence (trust) in self (self-confidence) and
·        confidence (trust) in God

Both can be equally strong yet they are often the very opposite. To have confidence in self in the wrong sense is exactly the opposite of confidence in God. It is believing you can achieve something solely by yourself, without God or his provisions, and empowering.

There also can be

·        good self-confidence and
·        bad self-confidence

Self-confidence in this wrong sense is not the same as saying we are confident/believe in and are thankful for the gifts God has given us (to "self"). Being confident in ourselves in the right way is good and necessary. It is based in the reality that we recognize all we are and have are gifts (i.e. not created or sustained by us/self).  There is a wrong kind of "self-confidence" but in this instance, our confidence is ultimately in God, because we recognize all we have and are comes from him i.e. everything is a gift from God himself, the source of all things. This kind of confidence is the fruit of humility; the belief we are who and what we are because these were given to us. The opposite of arrogance. 

But it is confidence in what we have; confidence in the abilities, strengths, and gifts God has given. In this sense, it is "self-confidence" or maybe more correctly confidence in the self God has made. 

It is ok to believe in the person God has made you to be. In fact, if you don't you won't use all he's given you to accomplish what he gave it for i.e. his glory and our joy. 

We can and should have confidence in the "self" God has created and is making us to be. Not an independent "self-made" self that attempts to advance self instead of God, but a self that recognizes they are in his image and seek to reflect him to the maximum potential he's designed them to.


The greatest gift is God himself along with all things.  

The gifts God gives to us (to "self") consist in the very *Spirit of God (God himself as Spirit first along with the various spiritual gifts he gives us, as well as our natural abilities (e.g. athletic, intellectual, artistic etc) and the physical or material resources God provides, along with the maturity he has developed into our lives. It is all from him and we can have absolute confidence in using all these things when we do so to advance his purposes for his honor/ glory. This is the very reason he gives them and all things. 

In fact, when we faithfully put to use the gifts he gives, he gives us more.  

"His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ - Jesus, Mat 25:21  

Gift defined

The word "gift" in the New Testament so happens to be the same word used for grace. 

In addition, Paul says he boasts in (has confidence in) the gospel of grace, God's ultimate gift to each of us. So we too can and should boast in this way. 

1Co_1:31  so that, as it is written, "Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord."
2Co_10:17  "Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord."
Gal_6:14  But far be it from me to boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
Rom 1:16  For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

χάρις - charis

Thayer Definition:

1) grace
1a) that which affords joy, pleasure, delight, sweetness, charm, loveliness: grace of speech
2) good will, loving-kindness, favour
2a) of the merciful kindness by which God, exerting his holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues
3) what is due to grace
3a) the spiritual condition of one governed by the power of divine grace
3b) the token or proof of grace, benefit
3b1) a gift of grace
3b2) benefit, bounty
4) thanks, (for benefits, services, favours), recompense, reward

Strong's Definition:

χάρις - charis - khar'-ece


From G5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude): - acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).

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*And by God's Spirit we know his love for us. This (God himself as Spirit/Love) is the ultimate gift and the source of power that moves and empowers us to pursue God and honor him. So we not only have abilities given to us by God but also the very love and desire (power) to pursue God is a gift from him i.e. our love is caused/inspired by his infinite love for us. 

For a discussion on how the Spirit of God moves us to obedience click here

For a discussion on what it means to operated in the Spirit click here


Saturday, April 14, 2018

Does God value us?

The following excerpt is from Jonathan Edwards's dissertation titled "The End for Which God Created the World." As the title shows, Edwards primarily addresses the reason God created. 

In this quote, Edwards explains why it is right (*moral) for God to have the highest regard and respect for himself over and above all other beings or things.

However, we wish to look at this quote more closely to see what Edwards says about God having regard and respect for beings other than himself and why he would.
"...At least, a great part of the *moral rectitude of God, whereby he is disposed (drawn) to every thing that is fit, suitable, and amiable [i.e. good, right, pleasant, admirable] in itself, consists in his having the highest regard to that which is in itself highest and best (i.e. Himself). The moral rectitude of God must consist in a due respect to things that are objects of moral respect; that is, to intelligent beings capable of moral actions and relations. And therefore it must chiefly consist in giving due respect to that Being (i.e.God) to whom most is due; for God is infinitely the most worthy of regard. The worthiness of others (beings) is as nothing to his; so that to him belongs all (the greatest/highest) possible respect. To him belongs (is rightfully his) the whole of the respect that any intelligent being is capable of. To him belongs (it is also rightfully his) ALL the heart. Therefore, if moral rectitude of heart consist in paying the respect of the heart which is due, or which fitness and suitableness requires, fitness requires infinitely the greatest regard (but not the only regard i.e. he has regard to others) to be paid to God; and the denying of supreme regard here would be a conduct infinitely the most unfit. Hence it will follow, that the moral rectitude of the disposition, inclination, or affection of God chiefly (but not exclusively) consists in a regard to HIMSELF, infinitely above his regard to all other beings; in other words, his holiness consists in this. (emphasis such as parenthetical, emboldened or underscored comments etc. are my own)
Though the main and most important point Edwards makes is God is the highest and greatest being, and therefore must have the highest and greatest respect for himself, he also hints he has regard for any being capable of moral respect. 
"The moral rectitude of God must consist in a due respect to things (beings) that are objects of moral respect; that is, to intelligent beings capable of moral actions and relations..." i.e. beings other than God that can also recieve and give God honor in the same way He does between the Father, Son, Spirit. 
Edward's use of the word "must" shows the ¹moral ²necessity of God having regard for any being capable of having "¹moral actions and relations." This is primarily true of God in regards to Himself but also of others like Him i.e. you and I. God created us as intelligent beings capable of moral actions and relations, to use Edwards words. This is clearly suggested when the Bible says we are "made in the image of God."

By God's own nature and design, he must value and love the most lovely and valuable. And who would that be? God himself is the most worthy of adoration and love. Why? He is love and life. From, through, and to him are all things. Without him nothing would be, that is. He is supremely valuable above all other beings or things. 

And Christ is the perfect eternal expression-reflection-image of God. If we see Christ for who he truly is, we see God as He truly is. But after Christ, we are next.

God's value of us has nothing to do with what we do or say but who we are, who God Himself designed us to be. It is an innate capacity and ability given to us by God and is therefore something he holds in the highest regard (just below regard for Himself). God is not obligated by us - by what we do or don't do - to value us. He values us because of who he made us to be i.e. our being, not our doing. The reason God love us and desires to be in union with us is self "imposed." 

This is due to our nature (God's and ours) and his design of those other beings i.e. we are like God - His image-bearers - with the capacity to engage in "moral actions and relations."

What is the nature of those moral actions and relations? What do "¹moral actions and relations" comprise? Any actions that deliberately/willfully acknowledge God's ultimate worth and any beings capable of doing so. This is not just true of God, but of us as well. And it is only true of us because it's true of God 1st - and that He made us like himself.

God has the highest regard for what we do. Our God-honoring conduct is genuinely pleasing to Him (as much as our dishonoring Him is not). But our capacity to live for God's honor is only possible because of who He has made us be.

Therefore, it is not only good and right that God has the highest regard for himself as the highest and most significant being but to have regard for other beings like him who are capable of having similar regard for him.

Who are those beings other than God? Us! We are created in the image of the greatest being of all. Though God is the ultimate and only infinite being who most worthy, elicits the highest regard and is capable of giving (and receiving) the greatest respect, we are like him and therefore capable of giving him due respect in the same way he does; in a way no other creature can. Though our ability to willfully regard God properly - i.e. to recognize and bring him his due glory and honor - is small ("as nothing") compared to his, it is a capability we have none the less which ³no other creature has (only we, out of all the rest of creation, are like God).

The point is God values ("has regard for") us due to our ability to appreciate and enjoy his infinite worth. The greater that ability the more he values (regards) the one who possesses it. God having the greatest ability elicits his greatest regard for himself first and foremost. Because we too have this ability, we are valued accordingly.

Again Edwards says God has 
"...due respect to things that are objects of ¹moral respect; that is, to intelligent beings (i.e. us as well as himself) capable of moral actions and relations..."  
In short, God values in us what he values in himself, the ability to give due regard and recognition to his great value and glory. Certainly, our capability is to an infinitely lesser degree than his, but a capability we have nevertheless. A capacity he values in us

Because this capability is given to us by God, it is not a point of pride but of humility. It is a gift, not anything accomplished or earned by us. It is who he has made us to be, not what we have done by or for ourselves. 

Knowing that our capability to properly regard (value/glorify) God is only a drop in an infinite ocean compared to his, is also a point of humility. He alone is the infinite source. We are simply conduits/vessels

Why does God love me?! 

When people say "I don't understand why God would love me," this is precisely why God would ⁴love you. He made you with the capacity to know and enjoy him in all his infinite glory in the same way (quality not quantity) he knows and enjoys himself. And in turn to radiate out to others his glory i.e. we are able to make Him known to others in a direct and deliberate way. 

To say it another way, we are able to deliberately, willfully and consciously glorify God and enjoy him forever in a way no other creature can. All of this and more is included in our being made in his image.

God values -- "has high regard for" -- us precisely because he values himself first, in whose image we have been created.

Some other links that touch on different aspects of God valuing us:


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¹For a further discussion on the basis for morality, click here.

²It is unnecessary in the sense that God is not obligated by something outside himself. God needs no one and nothing (no created thing) and answers only to himself. But because of who he is and who he made us to be as his image-bearers, this is a "necessity" first by his nature and his design. It is the way things operate because it is the way God designed them to operate according to his own nature. If there is any necessity, it is one God has within and to himself - within his being, according to who he is as the all-glorious God.

³all of God's creation glorifies him by design. We, however, appear to be the only beings that glorify him by both design and choice. The angels chose him at one point when some rebelled with Lucifer and others did not. We, however, are still in an ongoing state where we can choose not to trust him in this life, whereas angels apparently no longer have to deal with this battle. They only desire God, which will also be our future glorified state. 

⁴This is also why God is pleased with us the more we delight in him. Not unlike a wife would be when her husband delighted in her. Even though His love for us and acceptance of us is not based on or affected by our delight or lack of delight in him - i.e. his love is poured out on us because of the efforts of Christ, not ours - His commitment to and acceptance of us are unwavering because of Christ. Nothing we do or don't do can separate us from his love  we can nevertheless bring greater joy to God's heart the more we trust and delight in him.

For a fuller discussion on pleasing God click here

To say it another way, our rebellious unfaithfulness (sin) matters. It not only has a negative impact on us and those around us but it shows our lack of love for God and dishonors him i.e. we do treat Him with the respect He rightly deserves. It saddens God because he loves us and knows our honoring him is not only for our good but the means by which others are drawn to him through us. It saddens him if his glory is not being spread more effectively through us to others, affecting their experiencing and enjoying God in all his glory. 
  
Heb 11:6  And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.



Sunday, April 8, 2018

What makes us a distinct being/person?

Where do we begin and others end? What differentiates or distinguishes us from each other?


On the most obvious level, we each occupy our own physical space. We also each have our unique physical, emotional, intellectual, and creative attributes and skills. But is this all (or the main thing) that distinguishes us?

On a less obvious level, we also each have 1our own understanding and will, i.e. we are our own unique, separate being/person. We each have our own unique perspective and experience. Though you and I may agree on what we think on any given subject, your thoughts and choices are not mine and mine are not yours. 

Having our own perspective and experience, however, is not saying reality is merely subjective. In fact, just the opposite. Even though we each experience the objective world differently, it is still an absolutely objective reality i.e. we (as well as everything and everyone else) are who we (or they) are. We are not someone (or something) other than us. Everyone (or thing) outside us (or within us) is what it is and is not anything other than what it is regardless of our individual experience of it.

Nevertheless, how we experience these objective realities is unique to us. If four people stand equally apart in a circle around a large oak tree - with varied and unique branches - when asked to describe the tree, will give a different description simply because of their individual vantage point/location. Yet it is exactly the same tree. 

Our experience is our own and no one else's i.e. No one will experience the very real and objective world in the same way you or I will because no one else is 2us, located in the exact same space or observing the world through our eyes (our vantage point). We are all unique with our individual vantage points, understanding, and will (ability to choose).

So two aspects distinguish persons or things. Physical location is one. You and I (or any other physical object) cannot be in the exact same location as another physical object (be that animate or inanimate). 

But for persons (rather than things) there is also a distinction between physical and non-physical. Not all persons are physical. God is not physical, but he is a very real person, just the same. What distinguishes him from other persons has nothing to do with physicality but has to do with having his own distinct understanding (thinking) and will (choosing). Again we may be in complete agreement with him but our thinking and choosing are ours, not his or vice versa. 

We can also see this distinction between the physical and nonphysical within ourselves. 

To illustrate, if we are somehow transported (i.e. have some "out of body" experience) and our nonphysical being somehow separates from our physical, the real us is the part that is aware of being out of our body

i.e. it is not the other way around where our bodies are aware of us, it is us that is aware of our body being "over there" somewhere separate from us. 

Those who claim to have had such an experience say they can see their body "left behind" so to speak. But their point of awareness is coming from them being somewhere outside and separate from their body. 

If these experiences are legitimate, this illustrates how the physical merely "houses" the essence of who we are, which is nonphysical. This is also how the Bible appears to characterize this. This also helps us to better understand how God is a person yet has no physicality. 

So why do we humans experience our world differently from each other as well as from God? In a word we are limited (finite), God is not. Each of us is limited by location. This is simply saying we are not all-knowing, all-seeing, or everywhere present i.e. we locate only one place at a time and therefore have only 3one perspective at a time. Our understanding of what we observe is tied to that perspective at that time i.e. it is limited. 

God...the same but different.

We can not be like God physically simply because God is not physical. So we are like God in a nonphysical way. God is a person with his own individual will and understanding. So in this way, we are the same as God. We too are persons with understanding and will just as he is i.e. We are in his image. Part of being in his image means we are a person because he is a person first. 

However, unlike God, we are finite. We are not everywhere present (part of why God can be everywhere present is precisely because he is not physical and therefore not limited to a specific location), all-knowing, all-willing, and all-able (all-powerful). 

God is infinite in every aspect of his person. God's understanding is absolute and complete because of his "allness." He is not confined to one location and knows and sees all. Nothing exists outside of his presence and 
is beyond understanding. To use a crude analogy, He is the ultimate 4superhero if you will, without any limitations; he is everywhere present, sees all, knows all, and can do and does (sustains) all. Therefore his view and understanding of things and his ability (will) to carry out things are not partial but complete/absolute. Nothing (no one, no act, no thought) is hidden from his sight or understanding.

He is also all willing. No task is beyond his ability (power) to carry out, and nothing can thwart his ability to do so. Since He sustains everything, all that is or occurs is because he wills it to be so, i.e. He is all-powerful. Whatever He chooses is carried out. Nothing can thwart his choice simply because he sustains all things and nothing is greater than he is. 

When I will something, it's coming to pass is contingent on my ability to bring it about. With God, there is no limit on his ability and therefore on his will. What he will's he does. Or to say it another way, it is done simply by his willing it. We get a hint of this in the creation account when it says, "and God said let there be... and it was so..." 

This, however, does not mean everything is God and God is everything because, at a minimum, nothing else has his understanding, will and is everywhere present.

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1And, therefore, location as well. Wherever someone's understanding and will reside and issues forth from, another's can not reside in that exact same location/space.

2Even God himself, though he sustains everything, is a separate and distinct being.

3Which is why putting ourselves "in someone else's shoes" always helps increase our understanding of others; to see the world through their eyes, so to speak. Part of the maturing process involves stepping out of ourselves and taking on the perspective of others. The very fact we must do so further shows we are all unique and distinct, with a unique and separate vantage point. 

4Have you ever noticed that no superhero is everywhere present? Professor Charles Xavier of the X-Men comic series came closest with his telepathic ability but even he was not simultaneously present to everything. It's also interesting to note, he was one of the most highly regarded of mutants because of his ability. 


Monday, April 2, 2018

using evil for good

As we mature and our trust in God grows, we discover that pain is maybe the primary means of getting to know God, be that self-imposed by chosing self-denial - i.e. taking up our cross and following Christ - or imposed on us through circumstances outside our control/choice. 

Through our pain and struggle, we find we must grow deeper roots into God in order to weather life's storms and overcome its challenges. We come to see our pain and struggles are used - even designed - to aid us in developing a stronger connection with God so we might 1know and experience him who is love and life itself, more fully. The bigger the challenges are and the stronger the winds of life blow, the deeper our roots into God must grow to anchor us. This is not necessarily a fun process but it is a good one and ultimately in our best interest.

The more we see (believe/trust) this the more 2thankful we become in and even for our pain. To embrace pain in 3this way becomes the means by which we are able to more wholly embrace God.

Pain is bad

Ironically painin itself, is not good. It is the fruit of our rebellion. When Adam and Eve chose to be their own god, they rejected the only true God, resulting in their separation from him and ⁸loss of their continued participation in his unobstructed love and presence. Everything came "unglued" afterward. Thorns and thistles now existed in working the ground, causing pain and hindering our effort to be fruitful/productive - pain in childbirth - decay, death and destruction - alienation from ourselves (guilt and shame), each other through offences and unforgiveness and most importantly from God himself.

We get further indication of the destructive nature of evil if you look at the definition in the OT hebrew... 

H7451b  רַע - ra (948c); from the same as H7455; evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity: — adversity (7), calamity (4), disaster (2), evil (94), harm (2), harmful (1), hurt (1), ruin (3), surely (1), trouble (2), unpleasant (1), wickedly (1), wickedness (1).

Knowledge of good and evil

The following are key passages in Genesis using the word for evil (H7451b); all dealing with "the knowledge of good and evil" except Gen 31 which instead translates the word as "harm." There is clearly a direct connection between harm (suffering) and evil. To say it another way, that which causes harm/injury is evil and evil always causes harm/injury in some form or fashion i.e. either physically, emotionally or spiritually.

Gen_2:9  Out of the ground the LORD God caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evilH7451b.

Gen_2:17  but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evilH7451b you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die." 

Gen_3:5  "For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be 4like God, knowing good and evilH7451b."

Gen_3:22  Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become 5like one of Us, knowing good and evilH7451b; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"

Gen 31:29  "It is in my power to do you harmH7451b, but the God of your father spoke to me last night, saying, 'Be careful not to speak either good or bad to Jacob.' 

Simply stated, pain in itself is not good but evil and was not part of God's original creation. It causes destruction and harm due to our disconnect from God and his presence. If it were part of his ongoing design God would allow it to 4continue instead of do away with it all together one day.

So how can something evil be used for good? 

Even though pain in itself is not good but bad (evil), causing harm/injury, it becomes the means of appreciating the good that is God i.e. the greater the absence of good, the greater the 6appreciation of its presence. As an old saying goes, the negative accentuates the positive. Evil/harm/pain reveals to us the desperation and injury that occurs from the absence of God thereby increasing our appreciation for the presence of God and all the good that flows from him. 

Though directly, evil is bad, indirectly it is good. Or to say it more precisely it is the means by which God brings about our ultimate good i.e. our discovering and experiencing more of God, who is our ultimate good. But it does so indirectly, by being contrasted with good i.e. our appreciation for good is enhanced by experiencing the absence of good i.e. by experiencing harm/evil. Experiencing bad enables us to better appreciate it's opposite.

The good news is evil does not thwart the good purposes of God but actually becomes a tool in his hands to help us see our need for him and bring us closer to him. It is the ongoing means of drawing us ever nearer to him if we let it. 

To say it simply, God is bigger than evil and uses evil for good, our good. The most dramatic example of this is recorded in Act 2:23  

"...this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men..."

The highest purpose of God - revealing his infinite glory in sending Christ and restoring rebellious men and women to himself - was accomplished by means of the hands of lawless (evil or wicked in many translations) men. Consider this for a moment. The greatest good was accomplished by means of the greatest evil. When we "get" this, it shifts our entire view of suffering and life.

As Joseph said to his brothers who sold him into slavery - clearly an act of revenge and evil - "you 7meant it for evil (harm) but God meant it for good."

God is in perfect control and accomplishing his perfect plan even (maybe especially) through evil. 

For a further discussion of how we are in a constant state of pain click here.

For a further discussion of how God uses evil for our good click here...and here.

The greater the evil the greater the opportunity for healing/grace click here.

For a further discussion of the significance of paradox click here.

Were Calvin and Arminius both wrong? Click here.

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1The exact opposite of what we normally think. Normally, when we go through great pain we think God has abandoned us. He no longer cares or loves us. When in fact he loves us so much he desires we experience his love to even greater degrees and knows that is often best accomplished through pain. Pain causes us to press into him and his love more fully, which is ultimately for our greatest good because God himself is our greatest good i.e. our knowing and being in union with him is far more beneficial than immediate relief from pain or avoiding it all together. One day when we are fully in God's presence and face to face with Him, pain will no longer be needed but will have completed its purpose and done away with completely and forever "...for the former things have passed away.”

It is also the exact opposite of what we experience if we do not receive our pain in faith; faith that God is using it for our good, not our harm.

I once heard it said, pain can either make us better (press us closer to God) or bitter (cause us to turn further away from God). The difference is faith...in knowing and believing God is working for our good in and through the pain. 

2Actually we are not thankful for the pain itself, but the fruit of that pain i.e. the stronger connection with God that comes through the pain. In short, we are thankful for seeing and experiencing more of God. 

3If God allows you to experience great pain, it is only because he trusts your faith in him. He knows your faith in him and trust in his love for you is strong enough to ultimatetly press you closer to him, empowering and enabling you to handle it. 

1Co_10:13  No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation, he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

God's desire is to increase your faith so that you might experience him even more and find in him greater comfort and joy than in what we lost. The greater your faith the greater your opportunity to experience more of God. 

If you know and believe this, pain will be the means of your advancement. If you do not, it will only be the means of your harm and destruction. 

This is why scripture says "all things work together for good of those who love God..." If there is no love in our heart for God, it is because there is no trust in God (he's already proven his love in Christ so now all that is left for us to do is believe Him). 

If no trust, then no gain from "all things" we go through. To gain, we must trust. To trust we must love. To love we must first believe in his love for us. For evidence of his love we look to Christ and all he did to restore us back to the Father.

4Though pain discontinues for us it still exists. Those who are separated from God will continue in this state of separation and the pain that comes from it. 

5Though experiencing ("knowing") evil in itself is not good, knowing (having a growing appreciation for) good contrasted to that evil is. 

This is why the knowledge of good and evil (evil contrasted with good) is a legitimate part of God's character.

6Victory is sweetest when the greatest adversity is overcome. The greater the adversity, the greater the sweetness and joy in overcoming it. 

Christs victory over death (caused by our rebellion and the evil it brought) is the ultimate victory. It is also our victory if we are in Him.

7This is the key to forgiveness. Joseph was freed of righteous anger towards his brothers and was able to let the hurt go (which was real i.e. it really happened with real consequences) because he came to see there was a much higher/bigger/ good purpose in the offense against him - he saw beyond the offense. God was involved and working for his good in/by the evil his brothers intended. 

This was also what enabled Christ to say, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do" while in the throes of hanging on a cross and suffering the greatest evil/injury possible; an evil being committed by the very ones he asked his Father to forgive. He understood there was a much higher purpose in and through the evil he was experiencing which enabled him to embrace and overcome it. 

⁸Note, they hid from God not the other way around. God sought them out from the outset of their turning away from Him. The loss of His presence and everything else was the result of them turning away from God not him turning away from them.