Can there be peace on earth?

Due to humanity's spiritual bankruptcy (i.e., brokenness) and the resulting inclination to first take care of "number one" (ourselves), there will never be a complete utopia in this life - the goal of ¹all economic or political systems.

To have a true utopia, the individual parts must be sound. A system, no matter how perfect, cannot work properly if the individual parts are not whole and working properly. 

If you build a wooden structure with boards eaten out by termites, the overall structure is unsound and must be reinforced or artificially propped up, or it will collapse under any sustained weight or pressure.

This does not mean we should abandon living a ²productive life and seek to love God and our neighbor as He has called and designed us to. However, the only way we can is when we are fully plugged in, united, and engaged with Him who is the Source of life, love, and all things. If we are not in union with the Source of life, we are empty vessels at best, focused on filling the void - or trying to. This results in us being takers - in need of being made whole - not givers. The emptiness must be filled in the way it was designed to be if we are to be givers. 

The solution isn't implementing (or imposing on us or others) a particular economic or political system ¹externally but being fully connected and plugged into God himself, which is an internal solution that restores wholeness, resulting in things working outwardly as designed. 

If all the individual parts of a system - i.e., you and I - are not sound, the system will not work, no matter how perfect the outward design of that system may be. Any system composed of flawed individuals (parts) can only result in flawed and inferior outcomes. 

For this reason, a perfect system will never work; only perfect values and people willing and able to pursue them. Ultimately, this can only occur through people who recognize the greatness, worth, beauty, and glory of their Creator, and their dependence on Him and accountability to Him.

The solution ultimately is spiritual, not political or economic. It is in first knowing God and then making him known (the first and second greatest commandments and motto of Columbia International University - the college I attended), not just in word but in deed. To make Him known, we must first know Him in all His infinite love to and for us.

The real question isn't if there can be peace on earth, but how and when will it occur. For more on this, click here.  

For a discussion on giving as you have received, click here.  

For a discussion on obedience as the fruit of abiding, click here.

For a discussion on being fruitful, i.e., sewing and reaping, click here.

For a discussion on the basis of morality, click here.

For a discussion on what it means to "obey the authorities" in Romans 13 Click here

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Footnotes:

¹I am referring to economic systems - such as socialism or communism - externally imposed on us by the state and not internally and organically advanced. We are social-relational creatures, and as God's image-bearers, we are designed to receive and give love, not forced to.  

However, we are also spiritually bankrupt and broken - i.e., unplugged bearers of God's image made to be in union with (plugged into) their Creator. We can no more fully be who we are designed to be than a Christmas tree, ornately decorated, sitting in a dark room, unplugged from the electrical outlet. 

For more on our brokenness, click here.  

²We are clearly instructed in many places within the bible to be "fruitful." Most of these verses address spiritual fruit. However, spiritual fruit is usually manifested by actions that often produce material fruit. In fact, any action that produces material fruit should be driven spiritually i.e. by the Spirit/Love. If it is, it is valid. It is spiritual in motivation (i.e. for God's glory) with a material outcome.  

For several posts addressing operating in the Spirit, click here. 

³There is nothing wrong with personal consumption. Not in itself. If we do not consume vital resources -- water, food, shelter etc. -- we die. Consumption is not just necessary but vital. 

A pursuit that is solely driven by personal and excessive consumption as a substitute for God (i.e. an idol) is our challenge, not consumption itself. 

*Private ownership of property and the opportunity to acquire property through diligence is assumed throughout the bible. The founding fathers who penned America's Constitution and the Declaration of Independence acknowledged this when they declared we had a "right" to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. What most don't know is that the pursuit of happiness is the right to the fruits of our labor, i.e., property.  

Christ instructs us to pray for his rule and reign to come on earth as it is in heaven. 

"Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven..." - Matt 6:10 

Is this a prayer to usher in the Kingdom now or in the future? Both. 

For a discussion on what the kingdom of God is, click here. 

Work out your own salvation

Because our lack of humility and our inclination to be our own god has continued since our initial rebellion in Eden, everything we do tends to be ¹performance-based i.e. We are naturally inclined to take everything that God says - His directions or commandments - and turn them into a performance based approach to God i.e. a way of earning God's approval, acceptance, and love. 

Why? 

We feel compelled to prove our worth and counter our sense of inadequacy that resulted from our abandoning God, the source and only true basis of our identity. 

Why? Because we were created for glory but are no longer connected to the Source of glory, life, and meaning i.e. we are missing what we were designed to partake of: the beautiful (glorious), all-wise, and loving God. 

Since we (humanity in general) are designed to experience our greatest sense of worth and true identity in God, but turned away from Him, we now seek to regain this outside of and apart from him. 

We no longer do things to honor God but try to "save ourselves" and prove our worth by doing "good deeds." 

Even as His children, we are ²naturally inclined this way if we are not operating in and by His Spirit. 

True humility recognizes I can't (and never will) follow and pursue God perfectly in my natural strength, i.e., by simply willing it. God must be the energy and driving force behind my actions. I must recognize my weakness in living as God intends before I can be strong (in His strength) in faithfully pursuing Him.

This is the paradox of the "upside down" Christian life; when I am weak, I am strong. 2 Cor 12:7-10

"Therefore, my beloved... work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." - Phil 2:12-13

This passage does not say work for your salvation but work out your salvation that is already yours i.e. live out who you are - who God has made you to be in and through Christ - i.e. act as someone who is perfectly righteous (and loved) because of Christ's efforts on your behalf, not as someone trying desperately to make yourself righteous to win the acceptance and approval (and love) of others... starting with God.

Who we are in Christ (our "own salvation") is what gives us the will (desire) and power to live for God's pleasure. But we must fully believe and embrace what God declares about us in Christ if we are to experience His strength in and through us.

This is what Paul was also saying in Romans 6:11 

"So you also *must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus."

*must count - λογίζεσθε (logizesthe) 

Strong's 3049: To reckon, count, charge with; reason, decide, conclude; think, suppose.

Because sin no longer has a legal claim 

on us, live accordingly i.e. we are free from sin's legal claims; i.e., dead to sin's condemnation because Christ already fully bore its consequences, so we no longer have to.

"There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." - Romans 8:1

For a further discussion on the difference between being righteous and living righteously, click here.

For a discussion on the difference between being spirit-driven vs works-driven, click here.

For a discussion on being loved vs experiencing his love, click here.

For a discussion on becoming who we already are in Christ, click here.

For a discussion on how we are created for glory, click here, here, and here.

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Footnotes:

¹a performance-based approach simply means attempting to win God's love and acceptance by our good deeds. However, this is not only unnecessary because of Christ's work on our behalf, but an insult to Him and His work that fully accomplished this for us. This is a disposition of rebellion to God? When we take time to contemplate this, we are saying Christ's efforts were a waste of time because my actions can be good enough to satisfy and match the perfect and infinite holiness and goodness of God.

²This is why the Galatians reverted back to a performance-based salvation after Paul initially had clearly presented the gospel to them, resulting in him writing his letter to get them back on track. 

Brokenness...part 2

What is the nature of our brokenness?

It is the ¹absence of what (who) we were created to partake of and "run on" - so to speak. 

We could say this is more a state of spiritual bankruptcy than being broken - a condition that results in us being unable to love as we were designed to. This in turn results in our hurting (damaging) people and things around us.

You could compare us to a highly efficient and powerful car without gas that doesn't run, when others look to it for a ride or an exquisitely decorated Christmas tree to help others enjoy and celebrate the birth of Christ, but it's in a dark room unplugged. 

Without a connection to the Source of all we are and have, we simply do not function at the level we are created to.

But the effect of His ¹absence is far more than just practical or functional (though it is clearly that). It is spiritual (heart), intellectual (mind), emotional (soul), physical (strength), and every other possible way. Without God, we simply are not operating anywhere near our maximum capacity on all levels.

And because we are like God - the greatest, wisest, most powerful, yet humblest, kindest, most giving, and loving being in the universe - and meant to be in union with Him, His ¹absence impacts us far beyond anything we can comprehend. God's absence and the consequences are so significant it keeps us from even seeing His greatest, much less experiencing it. 

And not just us individually, but collectively as well. As God's image bearers, we are all designed to be loved by God 1st and love Him in return. This, in turn, results in our loving our neighbor. 

But instead of being filled with love for one another, we seek to get (take) love from one another, which results in regular conflict with other empty image-bearers. As ⁴one author described it, we are all like tics looking for a dog... with one huge problem - we are all tics. The only dog (figuratively speaking) is someone other than us creatures i.e. it is the Creator. Plus, we can't even clearly see who that dog is unless He opens our eyes i.e. He reveals Himself.

It is a wonder we can function fully at any level given the ¹immenseness of our Creator and the infinite void created by His absence.

Despite our enormous loss, we are still incredible (we are still like God) and can do incredible things but only a tiny fraction of what we were designed to do... (unless we are plugged in again).

Our ability to still function at any level at all without God speaks to the significance and power of our being ²like God and the beauty and wonder of all the gifts God has given us ³inside and out.

Though we are absent His love and felt presence, we never lost the capacity to experience, partake of, and reflect Him - especially when we are plugged in again. 

But instead of letting this void from His absence drive us back to Him, we use our gifts and our capacity for God (the void left by his absence) and try to fill that absence with created things (Rom 1:21-23) - including ⁵other God like beings (us). Things that were never meant to fill us. They only give us a taste of what is missing, but never replace Him or fill the void left by His absence.

The solution? It is summed up in the greatest and second greatest commandments.

“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And he (Jesus) said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. 

And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 

On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.” - Matt 22:36‭-‬40 ESV

Christ also said, “If you love me, you will keep my commandments..." - John 14:15‭-ESV

But how do we love him and others?

We love because he first loved us. - 1 John 4:19 ESV

“If you love me, you will keep my commandments. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever," - John 14:‬15-16 ESV

"...you will receive power when (and not one second before) the Holy Spirit has come upon you...” - Acts 1:8a ESV

For a discussion on the Holy Spirit, who "He" is, what He does and how he does it, see the following.

The life, love and Spirit of God (a concise discussion).

The empowering of the Spirit (an extended discussion)

Power within or without?

For an additional discussion on brokenness click here.

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¹something designed to hold an infinite object (person) will experience an equally infinite void if absent that object. 

Just imagine how effective, happy and powerful (glorious) we will one day be the day we are fully united - face to face - with the Source of life, love and all things! 

²We are still like a highly efficient and powerful car or a wonderfully decorated Christmas tree without God. We simply lack having what we need to reach our maximum potential. 

And what (or who we) lack is enormous beyond our comprehension. 

We experience some of God now but will perfectly when we are fully glorified.

God give us the grace to see and trust in your greatness.

³Inside - any and all gifts, skills and talents we genetically come into the world with, be it musical, artistic, athletic, intellectual or any other innate ability.

Outside - all of creation with all its wonder and beauty...tastes, smells, sounds...the earth, air, water. Sun, moon and stars and all the resources within these.

Also the collective experience and knowledge of humanity on how to develope and utilize our innate talents or the planets resources is also an external blessing. These are all available to us as God's image bearers that we all mutually benefits from even if and when we don't acknowledge them as being gifts from God.

⁴Dr. Larry Crabb (one of my favorite authors) in his book The Marriage Builder.

⁵

Captivated by love or the Spirit

When we are captivated by

God's ¹love we are also filled with or driven by the ²Spirit. This means what we say and do comes from and by the Spirit i.e. we are moved by love. 

The only question is if and when we are truly captivated. Is this even possible on this side of eternity? It is certainly something we should seek. 

To be moved by love is functionally the same thing as being moved by or filled with the Spirit, for God is Spirit and also love. Spirit and love are different aspects of the same being, but are also the same thing. 

To act from a heart filled with God and His love - i.e. in and by the Spirit - is to operate out of fullness, not out of need and emptiness. God's infinite love frees us to focus outwardly instead of inwardly, on others and not ourselves. This is expressive versus deficit motivation. When we are captivated by God's love, we change from the inside out and go from being takers (or "getters") to givers.

When we are moved by love - i.e., the Spirit - we do not have to give much thought to our actions toward others or our response to challenging circumstances. Generally, ³our response will be right because it is coming from the right place - i.e., a place of fullness of love, not a need for love. It will come from who we are as an infinitely cherished child of God bearing His image.

Right intent doesn't always guarantee right actions, but more often than not, results in them.

If you wish to operate in the Spirit, focus on and soak in God's love, not right conduct. Right living is the fruit of being loved, i.e., of operating in and by the Spirit.

How do we focus on his love? 

By faith.

But faith in what? 

Faith in the evidence of God's love, demonstrated perfectly through sending his Son to restore us to Himself. 

Christ stepped into our world of pain, suffering, and death to take upon himself our pain and death (caused by our rebellious unbelief). Why? So he might restore us to the Father and eventually free us from all pain, suffering, and death one day. He did this by removing the barrier between Him and us so He could love us freely and fully ⁴again (allowing Him to freely be who He already is as someone moved completely and perfectly by love without any obstruction or reservation getting in the way and blocking His love). 

Now, because of Christ, nothing can separate us from God's love.

For those who have eyes to see and ears to hear, let them see and hear... and believe!
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¹To say it more precisely, we are captivated by the God of love, not by the blessings of God. God himself is our focus, not the benefits He provides.

Because our faith is weak and our hearts are so quickly led astray, we can easily lose sight of the Source of all things and become obsessed with the things themself (the "prosperity gospel" is the classic example and manifestation of this natural inclination). This is a constant battle we must be aware of and on guard for. We are reminded of this by Israel's regular wandering back and forth from the Lord (depending on the leadership of their various kings and whether they had a heart for God or not) and God blessing or not blessing them according to their arrogance or humility; their dependence on God or on creature comforts. When they got obsessed with the blessings of life, the blessings dried up and when they cried out to God in sincere humility, God opened His hand of blessings to them again. God loves to bless us, but if the blessings pull us away from Him, He knows that isn't best for us, He is.

²The Spirit (literally "breath" in the original languages) of God is the outward manifestation of the passionate love of God between the Father and the Son as they behold the glory (beauty) of the other. This love is so all-powerful it is the foundation of the very existence of God Himself and all that flows from Him. God is love, and He is Spirit. And He is Spirit because He is love. 

For more on this click here.

When we are passionate about another, our excitement, heart rate, and rate of breathing go up as we behold the one we love. That very same kind of love is now directed and focused on us if we are in Christ.

What is it about us that God beholds, which creates this same passionate love for us? We are like God, i.e., in his image. God is most passionate about himself as a being of relationship between the Father, Son, and Spirit. Therefore, He's also passionate about us because we are like him, designed for a relationship with Him first. And out of that, relationships with other image bearers. 

We are also his children; the very sons and daughters of God (Christ is the firstborn of all God's children and our "big brother").

³How do we know when we are not captivated by love? When we do not respond in love to challenges or opportunities to love others. 

⁴In Christ God no longer deals with (relates to) us based on (according to) our rebellious unbelief but based only on (according to) his infinite love perfectly secured for us by Christ.

A conversation regarding obedience

In Nov. of 2017 I posted the following on Facebook. 

"Why do we pursue God, out of love or fear? 

Both! 

Out of love because he first loved us. 

Out of fear because operating contrary to God's design (how and why he made us) always has an adverse effect (if not immediately, eventually)."

This resulted in an instructive conversation between Rick (a FB friend) and I. I am posting that conversation below to illustrate the misunderstanding, tension, and confusion around our pursuit of (obedience to) God in the hope of clarifying some of the dynamics of that pursuit.

Now to Rick's response and the conversation that followed:

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Rick: 

You mean you aren't a Christian Hedonist? :/ I'm not either :)

Other valid reasons to seek God...

God exists and is the source of all meaning, purpose, and value. Without God, there would be none of these in an objective sense.

God is the ultimate authority over all creation and deserves our utmost obedience to his will, his pleasure and his purpose.

God is the ultimate worth and he is worthy of our praise and worship. Our surrender to God's will is the first step towards truly worshipping God.

Jim: (In response, I sent Rick the following blog post on the dynamics of what moves us to pursue and obey God)

http://thotsaboutgod.blogspot.com/2017/02/an-anatomy-of-motivation.html

Rick quotes from the above blog article adding his comments below...

Rick: 

"An anatomy of motivation - There are two overall but opposite approaches we observe in scripture regarding our motivation to obedience. All underlying forms of motivation fall under these two. These two broader areas are...

· positive motivation
· negative motivation"

His added comments...

- These two categories of motivation are based on the idea that we can expect something good or we can expect something bad. Another option that I believe is important is to acknowledge the authority of God as a basis of motive. In this respect, it is not so much what we personally expect but who God objectively is that forms the basis. If we believe God exists, we can obey God simply because of God's authority, without even contemplating what we personally expect. For example. We are commanded to submit to God and obey God. I can do this simply because God has clearly commanded it and not necessarily for any other reason. Do you agree?

Jim:

Yes, but I believe there's a bit more to obedience than simple willpower. If you haven't read the rest of the article at the above link it hints at this. 

Paul also points out it is God who enables us to choose and desire to pursue him in vs 13 of the following: 

"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." Php 2:12-13

How does he do so? By appealing to self-interest. For example, we are told in Heb 11:6 "And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him." The appeal of this verse is not just that God exists but OUR (us/self) being rewarded. 

Another example is "to gain your life you must lose it." What's the appeal? Us gaining life. The verse simply tells us the best way that happens is by losing our life i.e. we don't find our life by seeking life but by seeking God who is life. 

There is a difference between self-interest and self-ISHNESS. Not distinguishing these causes confusion. Several posts on my blog touch on this. If interested let me know.

Rick: 

Those are interesting verses and I would not be opposed to reading your articles. Because there are so many scriptural aspects of obedience to God, to me this implies that there are many valid motives that can overlap and are not mutually exclusive. I believe that there is a danger of taking a verse like Heb 11:6 and suggesting that this one verse codifies our approach towards obedience to God. For example, there is the motive of love of God that Jesus stated was a valid motive:

"If you love me, keep my commands." John 14:16

The word love is from the Greek "agape" which is translated as a self-less benevolent and giving type of love. So in other words, our motive for obedience based on this verse is not self-interest but is based on pleasing God.

Jim:

Love is THE key motive to obedience. So the question becomes how and when do we love God i.e. what is the cause of (stirs up) our love for him. Scripture clearly teaches our love (the key motive "behind" obedience) is a RESPONSE to his love for us. 1 Jn 4:10 "In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins." In 1Jn 4:19 John goes on to say, "We love because he first loved us." We are not the initiators of love, God is.

This is also implied in John 15. It says without me "you can do nothing..." (vs 5) i.e. we can not bear fruit on our own. Fruit in the context is loving God and others (vs 12,17). So our loving God and others is based on and caused by our abiding in his love for us (vs 9). We can not love as God loves - i.e. sacrificially - otherwise. To say it another way, we are not the cause or source of love but the conduits of it.

Re: the Hebrews passage...it is simply an example, not a proof text. Self-interest is implied throughout scripture. His great offer is eternal life to us i.e. our eternal life. Even fear of the consequences for disobedience is the fear of US suffering. We do nothing apart from self-interest. 

Christ's very appeal to loving our neighbor is love for ourselves "...love your neighbor AS you love yourself..." He doesn't condemn our love of self (our desiring what is best for ourselves) he assumes it and makes his appeal based on that assumption.

The issue isn't our wanting what is best for us, it's how is that best accomplished. Through self-effort or in and by God i.e. through his love for us. 

I think the issue is we don't realize our greatest joy is IN God and recognizing the greatness of his glory i.e. our greatest joy (pleasure) and God's highest glory are not in opposition to each other but tied together. To say it another way, pursuing God and his highest glory IS our greatest joy (pleasure).

Rick: 

Jim Deal - "Self-interest is implied throughout scripture. His great offer is eternal life for US i.e. OUR eternal life." ...Christ's very appeal to loving our neighbor is love for ourselves "...love your neighbor AS you love yourself..." He doesn't condemn our love of self (our desiring what is best for us)

I'm sorry, but implications of our self-interest are always subservient to the interest of pleasing God in the whole of scripture, and plainly commanded as such, and to place our self-interest on equal grounds with pleasing God I believe is shown to be actually heretical based on traditional interpretations.

To take your first point, eternal life is epitomized by relationship together with God: "Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." (John 17:3) And relationship is defined as "being one" in the spirit: "I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one" (John 17:22) --- These verses do not imply that eternal life is based on focusing on the self or that the motive for eternal life is self-interest, rather, the focus is on interrelationship and unity for the glory of God, that is, mainly for GOD'S sake, not our own.

In your second point, you reference the second part of a two-part command and left out the most important first command: Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[a] 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] There is no commandment greater than these.” (Mark 12:30-31)

Matthew Henry clarifies the primacy of scriptural value:

"As we must, therefore, love God BETTER THAN ourselves, because he is Jehovah, a being infinitely better than we are, and must love him with all our heart, because he is one Lord, and there is no other like him; so we must love our neighbor AS OURSELVES, because he is of the same nature with ourselves;" (emphasis added). Here is Matthew Henry's full commentary on this verse:

2. That the second great commandment is, to love our neighbor as ourselves (v. 31), as truly and sincerely as we love ourselves, and in the same instances, and we must show it by doing as we would be done by. As we must therefore love God better than ourselves, because he is Jehovah, a being infinitely better than we are, and must love him with all our heart, because he is one Lord, and there is no other like him; so we must love our neighbour as ourselves, because he is of the same nature with ourselves; our hearts are fashioned alike, and my neighbour and myself are of one body, of one society, that of the world of mankind; and if a fellow-Christian, and of the same sacred society, the obligation is the stronger. Hath not one God created us? Mal. 2:10. Has not one Christ redeemed us?"

If we try to ignore or deny a direct commandment, that clearly states pleasing God (with others-centered agape love) is the highest commandment, and offer that self-interest is on par with or even above the command to please God, how is this not patently heterical?

"our greatest joy (pleasure) and God's highest glory are not in opposition to each other but tied together."

This is basically a toned-down re-phrasing of Piper's maxim. However, the phrase "God is not most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in him" is misleading because the true measure of God's glory is not our personal satisfaction. The highest measure of God's glory is our conformity with God's nature and will, which is most emphasized by conforming to God's nature and will, which is based on agape love and holiness.

Scripture advocates worshipping God in spirit and in truth:

"God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” (John 4:24).

Piper completely discounts many critical aspects of worship, such as affirming and meditating on truth, and heretically demands that the worship of God is based on emotions as an end in and of themselves:

"It can be done only when spontaneous affections arise in the heart. And these affections for God are an end in themselves. They are the essence of eternal worship" (p92 DG)

Jim, I am reading a brief but excellent new book on Piper titled "Christian Hedonism? A biblical examination of John Piper's teaching" by ES Williams, and I believe that it might help you to glean from his research some of the many critical scriptural errors of CH.

Jim:

Rick W Thanks for the feedback.

I don't disagree with anything you said.

Everything must be subservient to God simply because he is the cause of all things (i.e. a more than sufficient reason if there were no other one) "... For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen..." (Rom 11:36)

Nothing in scripture (regarding our obedience) is based on FOCUSING on self.

It sounds like you are equating self-interest with selfishness and that our interests are ABOVE Gods. I've said neither.

What I am saying is our (self's) best interest is IN God. God is our (self's) best interest.

My point is in order for us (self) to know and enjoy God, "self" is not set aside but fully engaged. We (us, self) give God the greatest glory when we (self) find him our greatest joy, treasure, pursuit etc. This isn't putting self above God at all. It is self delighting IN God above all things, vs self delighting in created things over and above God the Creator (our delighting in creation above God is the essence of self ISHNESS. It is seeking to make life work WITHOUT God i.e. through what I can obtain by myself and solely for myself. It is seeking meaning, purpose, joy, etc independent of God for my glory, not his).

However our (self) finding God to be more glorious than anything else "shows him off" (brings attention to his infinite glory, i.e. glorifies him). To believe and then act as if something is more valuable than God, dishonors him. When we find God our greatest delight and pursuit we are telling others, God is more important to me than anything else and therefore could be to you as well.

Regarding the greatest commandment, this actually underscores the point I am seeking to make. Loving our neighbor flows out of loving God first (which is the fruit of his love for us). It all starts with God, is through God and is for God i.e. for his glory e.g. Rom 11:36 

End of our FB conversation. 

In this conversation, we are dealing with very nuanced points. Facebook is generally not the best place for in-depth discussion and contemplation of such things. I say this because after looking this over there are things I did not address that I could have. Therefore I offer these additional thoughts.

Regarding obedience to God out of fear i.e. respect for God, even this is based on "self-interest" i.e. I wish to honor God out of respect for him and because he is worthy of all honor/respect but why do I respect Him?  Because he is all-wise, all-powerful, and just and I don't want something bad happening to me (self) if I don't honor him as such. This isn't selfish. It is rooted in our very being as God's image-bearer. Our being a creature who desires our own best interest is actually necessary in order for us to be able to enjoy and honor God who is most high and most delightful. 

For more on this point click here. 

Rick said, "I'm sorry, but implications of our self-interest are always subservient to the interest of pleasing God in the whole of scripture, and plainly commanded as such, and to place our self-interest on equal grounds with pleasing God I believe is shown to be actually heretical based on traditional interpretations."

This is a common misunderstanding and is hardest to grasp. God's highest glory and our greatest joy are not in competition or opposed to each other or that we can only do one or the other. So there are no "equal grounds." They are tied together but not equal because everything must start with God. Nothing happens if God were not all glorious. However, our greatest joy is God's highest glory. The more we exalt him - recognize His glory - the more we experience Him as He is and the greater our joy becomes. Joy is the result of recognizing and acting upon God's greatness - His infinite glory. We find him to be our greatest joy when we lift him up (glorify him) as the highest/greatest (most delightful) being of all beings or things and the only one worthy of our honor and greatest delight. This is not an "either/or" scenario. God's glory and our delight in God go hand in hand but in that order. It always must start with God, not us. If God were not the greatest of all beings, we would not and could not find the great joy that is God himself. And we are wired this way because this is how God designed us, so we might share in His glory as He does as Father and Son in by and through the Spirit. To enjoy God most we have to be most like Him without being God i.e. we are in His image.

Rick said:

Another option that I believe is important is to acknowledge the authority of God as a basis of motive. In this respect, it is not so much what we personally expect but who God objectively is that forms the basis. If we believe God exists, we can obey God simply because of God's authority, without even contemplating what we personally expect. For example. We are commanded to submit to God and obey God. I can do this simply because God has clearly commanded it and not necessarily for any other reason. Do you agree?"

Whether Rick deliberately intends to, the implication of what he is proposing is we have within ourselves the spiritual strength to obey God by simply willing ourselves to do so without God empowering us i.e. apart from his Love/Spirit. This is placing our will as the key (central) to obedience instead of God. However, God is the driving force behind our obedience, not our will. It is God who works in us "...both to will and to work for his good pleasure." Our will is an intricate part of obedience but it is not the central part, God is. Our will is vital in deciding (choosing) to believe God is who He claims to be and does (did and will do) what He promises/claims He will do. But this is choosing to believe is anchored into who God is generally and who He is for us specifically. It is based on faith in the character of God,  not faith based on faith in itself or how great our will is.

For a further discussion on this point click here.

The following verses clearly show the will and desire to obey God come from God, not us. Yes, it is our desires but desires that God "works" in and through us by revealing to us His great glory. 

Philippians 2:12-13 English Standard Version (ESV) 

12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Though we are in God's image which allows us (gives us the capacity) to honor and enjoy God, absent God's Spirit/Love we are dead to God. We are not the source/cause/initiators of sacrificial love. Only God is. We can only love sacrificially when we know God loves us sacrificially and "has our back" i.e. God honors and rewards us and all our actions when done for his honor.

For more discussions on obedience click here.  

For more discussion on how our worth is tied to God's click here. 

The law, grace, and God's will

We cannot see or receive the full demands of the law until we grasp the fullness of God's ¹grace. Without a clear grasp of grace, the ²law crushes us when we fully grasp what it asks of us.

On the other hand, in order to have a clear understanding of God's direction and will, we must have a clear understanding of the law i.e. God's moral standards and direction-will. The law spells out, in no uncertain terms, the conduct God desires (wills) and designs for us. That conduct and design are God's expressed, revealed, or written will - vs his secret, vocational or providential will. 

Nevertheless we cannot properly benefit from the law or receive its direction the right way until we have a clear grasp of grace. 

Both the law and grace are vital in our relationship with God and must both be held in their proper place and order. 

Grace is the oil (lubricant) and ³fuel of our relationship with God and the law is the track (directions) we run on (not as a requirement to be accepted by God but as the means by which we reach our maximum speed - potential - and how we honor Him most). 

Loving God with everything we have and our neighbor as our self - i.e. the 1st and 2nd greatest commands - are the ultimate standard and our highest design.

We tend to focus on one side or the other i.e. legalism (law/obedience) or antinomianism (grace/faith). We are inclined to do so due to our lack of trust in God. 

But when properly understood, law and grace (as God intends it) are not in conflict. They go hand in hand. True trust (faith) filled, love-driven obedience is neither of these.

Walking with God by grace is truly freeing. Once we fully grasp God's infinite grace, we will never be the same. There is no longer any condemnation or rejection for our distrust, failure, or disobedience. Only God's complete embrace and perfect acceptance are ours in and through Christ. 

But that doesn't mean walking with God is mushy or wishy-washy. It is solid and has teeth. Because God's law clearly lays out the best way to operate - i.e. according to His design - to not live according to His clear direction (love God and neighbor) is to our harm, loss, or eventual destruction and the harm of others. It has real consequences, like trying to run a jet on water instead of jet fuel has consequences. It's not a question of judgment but of operating as God designed us to.

Living contrary to His design-will-law matters, similar to using equipment according to the owner's manual matters. If the equipment doesn't operate as it was designed, it does not run properly and eventually breaks down -  not to mention never reaching its maximum efficiency and potential. Not operating according to the manual (the "law" on how the equipment works best) always results in negative consequences i.e. equipment failure.

If we are to know and walk with God well, we must know and walk with him exactly as he prescribes. The law isn't a list of  requirements we must complete to be acceptable and accepted by God but neither is it mere recommendations. To operate optimally, we must operate according to His direction, which is also the way He designed us to operate. Walking with God is grounded in truth/reality. There are no ambiguities within God or his direction. Any ambiguities lie only within us and our lack of understanding of God; his directions, design, and purpose.

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1‭-‬4 ESV  

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. Matthew 5:17 ESV

For a discussion on legalism click here

For a discussion on walking in the spirit and not under the law click here

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¹Grace consists of God fully receiving us in all our brokenness and having his eyes set upon us in perfect love and care even when we stray...no, actually, especially when stray.

This is only because Christ fully satisfied the demands of God's law on our behalf and credited us with His perfect obedience as if it was our own. He now sees us in the same way He views Christ, with perfect affection and delight. In Christ, God now sees and receives us as perfect, without flaw. He could not set his love upon us otherwise.

²By law, I mean God's moral standard - not ceremonial rituals that were done away with by Christ fulfilling them. 

God's moral standard is summed up in the greatest commandment to love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength, and the 2nd which is like it... loving our neighbor as ourselves. This is what we are called to live out, not in order to be received by God but in response to His relentless love, we desire to honor God for who he is - loving, merciful, patient, gracious, and kind etc. - and our fellow image bearers for who they are i.e. like God, worthy of our love.

³To be precise love is the fuel that drives our obedience but this is love granted to us only in and through grace. 

The 2nd is like unto it...

Luke 10:

"And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him (Jesus) to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” He (Jesus) said to him, “What is written in the Law? How do you read it?”

And he (the lawyer) answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength

and with all your mind, and your

neighbor as yourself.” - Luke 10:25-27

You have likely heard this passage often. Maybe even memorized it. However, this is not exactly how it was originally presented in the OT.

Deut 6:

“Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.

And these words that I command you today shall be on your heart. You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise. You shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes. You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates. - Deut 6:4-9

Notice what is missing? I added the context of verses 6 - 9 so it's more obvious. What is not mentioned in this OT passage? There is no mention of loving your neighbor in the immediate context, the chapter, or even the entire book.

In all three gospel accounts, loving our neighbor is ¹added as if they are quoted together. In Luke, the lawyer talking with Christ adds it, and Christ agrees. Did this lawyer get it wrong? No, Christ agreed that this commandment is the second greatest. In fact, in the other two accounts, Christ lists them together himself. 

But all these accounts also say the second is like, though not equal to, the first. If you look around more in the OT, there is definite mention of loving our neighbor, but not neatly together and in the immediate context with the greatest commandment as we see it in the gospel accounts. In fact, it is mentioned in Leviticus,  an entirely different book.

My point? The second is ¹only the second. It is like the first, but not equal to it. It comes after, for a reason, i.e., the second will not and can not happen as God intends unless the first happens... first.

Why do I raise this? Often we hear an equal emphasis on the second, or it is brought up without ever mentioning the 1st as if it isn't tied to and dependent on it (Christ clearly ties these together in the order he does for good reason. Loving God 1st is vital. It must come 1st!). As a result, we can lose sight of the first and the necessity of it being first. And when we do, we can turn this into a performance-based activity, as if we must love our neighbor to be loved and accepted by God, as we are inclined to do - in our rebellious state - with every other commandment of God.

Why do we do this? Because we are prone to do it. In our fallen and rebellious state, we tend to turn every commandment into a way we can be our own god, savior, deliverer, and provider i.e. we seek to be independent of God, operating in our own power. So it is when we come to to all of God's commandments. We treat them as some kind of hoop we must jump through to make ourselves acceptable to God and our fellow man. We are prone to use any and all of God's commandments to earn God's acceptance (as well as each others) - and sadly think we can - instead of obedience being the fruit and expression of God's acceptance of us in Christ. We are naturally inclined to read scripture through a performance-based lens, even as his redeemed children and even more so if we are not his child but only a church goer. This is our natural orientation since our rebellion in Eden, which we should always be on our guard against. 

It is also an affront to Christ and the very gospel of grace that God has provided for us in Him.

So if loving our neighbor is second, not 1st, how is it like the first? 

It is an expression of love. Both are about love, but love in its proper order. As scripture clearly states, we love God because he first loved us. The second is tied to the 1st by flowing out of it. We are not the source of love, God is. This is received love that is vertical and comes from above. That is why the first command is the first - and must always be the 1st - and the second is the second and only like the first. The 2nd is the horizontal love that flows out of us to our fellow man due to our connection vertically with God himself, the only source of love, life, and all things. To him alone be all the glory for he alone deserves it - is worth it.

Related discussions:

Love is power

Empowered by what?

It all depends on God and you.

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*If the 2nd commandment is not in the original context, why would Christ add it? I think the point Christ is making is loving our neighbor is evidence that we truly love God as the greatest commandment tells us to. It is the natural outflow of loving him with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength. And because God is a relationship as Father, Son, and Spirit, so are we. 

**Even though it is the 2nd, Christ ties it to the 1st for a good reason. It is the natural outflow of and progression from the 1st. As Christ said, in these two commandments all the others are summed up. In fact in the letter of 1st John it is evidence we are engaged in the 1st and the fruit of it i.e. If the 2nd is not happening it is because the 1st is not either. The 2nd cannot occur as God intends unless it flows out of the 1st.

How can all the commandments be summed up in these two?  Everything God calls (commands) us to be and do involves our love of God and our love for man and, in this order.