Love and/or consequences

As God's children, we are no longer ³condemned by God for our ¹poor choices. Legally there is no ³condemnation for those who are in Christ.  

But neither are we ⁴protected practically from the short-term consequences of those choices and the actions that follow. 

The creation - which includes us as bearers of God's image - operates best according to God's design (law). To violate that design results in things not operating properly or fully.

When the legal consequences of our rebellious distrust are removed, it changes us. We are now "seated in the heavenlies" in Christ. Grasping this new reality of our status with God creates within us gratitude and love for Jesus, who removed the kegak consequences. 

There is a difference between a supernaturally changed heart and a morally restrained one. Love changes us. The law restrains us. Love changes us from within. The law restrains us from without. Both are necessary in making good choices. 

God's law is good and necessary because it lays out and defines how things are designed to operate. To ignore it results in harm to us and others.

These two realities - ⁷love and law - are the positive and negative guardrails that are intended to help drive or guide all true believers' words and actions. 

Love motivates believers to make the right choices (which leads to right actions). 

Fear (respect) of negative consequences motivates us to avoid the wrong ones. 

As God's children, we have no fear of rejection by God, but should still recognize and fear that living contrary to His design always has practical - vs legal - negative consequences. 

As image bearers of God, all our choices matter because we are created to love and honor God. To live contrary to this design results in harm and destruction to ourselves and others. Consequences aren't a direct judgment of God but the organic result of violating God's design.

As God's children our choices do not matter as far as being perfectly loved and accepted by God. In Christ we are always infinitely and perfectly loved and fully accepted and embraced. 

But as the bearers of God's image our choices still must align with how God designed us and the world around us to operate.

These two realities - love and law - appear to be at ⁶odds with each other. But being fully loved and ²experiencing consequences for poor choices are each as true as if the other does not exist. But because of Christ these ⁵exist and work together. Both for our ultimate gain and benefit. 

For a further discussion on the "anatomy" of motivation, click here. 

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Footnotes:

¹By poor choices I simply mean disobedience. Disobedience is the resulting outcome (actions) of our rebellious distrust of God. (This always result in harm to ourselves and others). And distrust is at the heart of our choosing to be our own god. Our desire to be like god - in a way we are not designed to be - was the temptation our original parents bought into that brought pain and death into the world. 

We still operate this way to this day, perpetuating that pain. The present pain, suffering and death we see in the world now reminds us that our choices still matter.

²God may mercifully suspend the the full consequences of poor choices when we sincerely acknowledge them - i.e. "repent." But there is no guarantee. This would be a supernatural intervention and interference of their natural (organic) outcome. Without His mercy (intervention) the consequences will remain, hence His intervention is merciful.

Plus only God knows the sincerity of our heart (and what best aids our maturing) and when we truly abandon (turn away or repent of) a poor choice or only pretend to in order to get some kind of relief or benefit. 

God's objective is our drawing nearer to Him, which is a matter of the heart first. This results in a change in behavior.

³Why are we no longer legally held accountable and condemned for our words and actions contrary to our design and God's will? Because Christ was condemned in our place. The very fact that someone (Christ) was condemned means God's law (will, design) matters. It is vital that these are adhered to. There are always consequence for violating it (them). Because of Christ stepping in for us and taking the condemnation we rightly deserve,  the long term legal consequences no longer fall on us but fell on Him. Instead of the judgment and death rightly due us we are given forgiveness and life. These were earned for us not by us.

For those who ask why there is still pain and suffering in the world after Christ bore the legal consequence of mankinds rebellion, it is because our choices that spring forth from our rebellious distrust of God matter. 

⁴there are also benefits (positive "consequences") for operating according to God's design. Whatever we sow - both good and bad - we also reap. This is why non believers can flourish circumstantially by operating according to God's law. 

Nowhere does the Bible indicate the law is bad, but the opposite. It is seeking to justify ourselves through obedience to God's law that is wrong, not the law itself. 

⁵"Steadfast love and faithfulness meet; righteousness and peace kiss each other." - Psa 85:10 

⁶Our natural inclination is to try to earn God's love. This is why those who claim to be believers have a hard time acknowledging how they come up short. In their minds this means our rejection by God. In order to be fully honest about our rebellious condition we must see God's perfect acceptance and embrace of us because of Christ.

To believe this it is possible to earn God's love does not recognize we can never be perfect enough to earn it. This is why Christ came.

⁷giving us the law is actually an indication and expression of love. What we value most we desire is well cared for. Because everything operates best by design, giving direction on how something (someone) functions best is because we value i.e. love it (or them). Law is not our problem. Using it in an attempt to justify ourselves is our problem. It is a misuse of the law. 

AI edit...

The gift of the law reflects love, as we seek to care for what we cherish most. When we value something—or someone—we provide guidance to help it thrive according to its design. The law itself isn’t the issue; the problem arises when we use it to justify ourselves. This is misuse of the law. 

Combined...

The gift of the law is actually an indication and expression of love. We seek to care for what we cherish. Because everything operates best by design, giving direction on how something (someone) functions best is because we value it i.e. love it (or them). Law is not our problem. Using it in an attempt to justify ourselves is our problem. It is a misuse of the law. 

What is the good news?

The essence of the gospel is God's love, acceptance, and embrace of us are secured solely by Christ's efforts, not ours. 

Because Christ was and is perfect in every way - and credits or assigns his perfect "track record" or status and union with the Father to us - i.e. God's love and embrace of us is perfect in every way - He loves us in the same way He loves the Son of His eternal affection; as if we were faithful to him exactly the same way Christ was, when we are (and were) not. 

This indeed is good news because we are not required to achieve this status through our efforts and can not mess it up by the lack of effort either! Hard to believe, but true. 

If we truly believe this good news (gospel) - i.e. that in Christ God is now totally for us and no longer against us, (even in our current imperfect state) - the more it will galvanize us in the face of adversity and empower us to become unstoppable for God. The more we grasp this the more unstoppable we become.

If we are not unstoppable for God we have not yet fully grasped the good news that his relentless and boundless love is immovably fixed upon us. 

This gospel isn't simply about entering the Kingdom of God but living and walking in it, i.e. being empowered by God's love to live for Him today and every day!! This is fully and freely extended to us because of Christ's efforts alone.

The 2 key elements needed for this to occur...

1. The good news (gospel) itself - God's part, i.e. he has already fully and perfectly taken care of our sinful status. We don't need to and indeed, can not do this ourselves.

 and

2. The extent to which we believe (fully grasp) this good news - which is our part. Our understand is ongoing and always increasing if we are truly His child.

The first element - the good news - is accomplished only by God in and through Christ and is complete. Nothing can be added to it or be taken away from it. It is what God did - and does - (Rom 8:34b) through Christ and has nothing to do with our efforts, good behavior (or bad for that matter). It is 100% legally ours but ours practically (i.e. experientially) on a day-to-day basis, to the extent we receive and believe it.

The second element - our faith (trust) in this good news - is our part (our "work") regarding our relationship with God. 

It is work in the sense it requires us to humble ourselves and take up our cross daily. This is not easy and is ongoing until we go to be with Him eternally. This is the key to the maturing process, i.e. our spiritual formation (sometimes referred to as sanctification). 

As our trust in God and His perfect, infinite love for us (extended to us freely by grace) increases, our living (and desire to live) for God's honor also increases, i.e. the good news increasingly manifests itself in greater degrees through our words and actions as our trust in Him grows.

The effect this good news has on our day-to-day actions and conduct is small if our grasp (belief) of it is small and great if it is great.

So how do we increase our faith or remedy our unbelief? 

God must first reveal to us the desperateness of our condition without Christ, i.e. how short we come in recognizing the goodness and love of God and also how desperately broken we are without Him. 

Until we see our need for this good news (that there is no hope of being received by God without Christ) we will not desire or seek it. The more we see our desperate need, the greater the impact this good news has on us and the more it changes us. 

Illustration: who appreciates reaching the top of mount Everest most? 

God must also reveal himself to us in all his beauty and glory. The more of his beauty we see the greater our desire for him grows. The greater our desire, the greater our pursuit. 

As God reveals to us both our desperate need and His glorious beauty, our faith ¹grows. Our faith in God is only as good as our view of God (and ourselves) is clear and accurate.

And what is the condition or state we must enter into for God to reveal Himself to us most?

Humility, i.e. recognizing our desperate need of God. 

*Humility is key to seeing God.

*Seeing God is key to great faith.

*Great faith is key to great pursuit of God.

God's strength manifests itself in us most the more we acknowledge our weakness. The essence of the gospel practically is strength in and through weakness  - 'when I am weak, than I am strong."

This is bad news before it is good news.
The extent we are able to admit the bad news is the extent we will receive to good news

How do we not change?

If we change ("obey") because we think we must in order to be accepted by God - i.e. because of external pressure or reasons - it never lasts. True and lasting change only occurs because we want to change, i.e. it comes from self-imposed internal "pressure" i.e. motivation. To truly change we must have a genuine desire to change. And this is only by the Spirit, not human willpower.

"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." - Phil 2:12-13.

Change that comes about from external pressure is not true change, but merely external conformity, which results in self-righteousness, not humility. This is the essence of legalism which unfortunately is common within the Christian community. 

For a discussion on: 

How we are inclined to try and earn God's love click here.

The difference between "Cultural Christians" and grace-driven followers of Christ, click here.

The essence of God's Kingdom click here.

How God's love is conditional and unconditional click here.

Should our focus be on morality or Jesus? click here.

 

What is righteousness click here

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¹to the extent to which our trust in ourselves diminishes and our trust in God increases, we change.

Captivated by love or the Spirit

When we are captivated by

God's ¹love we are also filled with or driven by the ²Spirit. This means what we say and do comes from and by the Spirit i.e. we are moved by love. 

The only question is if and when we are truly captivated. Is this even possible on this side of eternity? It is certainly something we should seek. 

To be moved by love is functionally the same thing as being moved by or filled with the Spirit, for God is Spirit and also love. Spirit and love are different aspects of the same being, but are also the same thing. 

To act from a heart filled with God and His love - i.e. in and by the Spirit - is to operate out of fullness, not out of need and emptiness. God's infinite love frees us to focus outwardly instead of inwardly, on others and not ourselves. This is expressive versus deficit motivation. When we are captivated by God's love, we change from the inside out and go from being takers (or "getters") to givers.

When we are moved by love - i.e., the Spirit - we do not have to give much thought to our actions toward others or our response to challenging circumstances. Generally, ³our response will be right because it is coming from the right place - i.e., a place of fullness of love, not a need for love. It will come from who we are as an infinitely cherished child of God bearing His image.

Right intent doesn't always guarantee right actions, but more often than not, results in them.

If you wish to operate in the Spirit, focus on and soak in God's love, not right conduct. Right living is the fruit of being loved, i.e., of operating in and by the Spirit.

How do we focus on his love? 

By faith.

But faith in what? 

Faith in the evidence of God's love, demonstrated perfectly through sending his Son to restore us to Himself. 

Christ stepped into our world of pain, suffering, and death to take upon himself our pain and death (caused by our rebellious unbelief). Why? So he might restore us to the Father and eventually free us from all pain, suffering, and death one day. He did this by removing the barrier between Him and us so He could love us freely and fully ⁴again (allowing Him to freely be who He already is as someone moved completely and perfectly by love without any obstruction or reservation getting in the way and blocking His love). 

Now, because of Christ, nothing can separate us from God's love.

For those who have eyes to see and ears to hear, let them see and hear... and believe!
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¹To say it more precisely, we are captivated by the God of love, not by the blessings of God. God himself is our focus, not the benefits He provides.

Because our faith is weak and our hearts are so quickly led astray, we can easily lose sight of the Source of all things and become obsessed with the things themself (the "prosperity gospel" is the classic example and manifestation of this natural inclination). This is a constant battle we must be aware of and on guard for. We are reminded of this by Israel's regular wandering back and forth from the Lord (depending on the leadership of their various kings and whether they had a heart for God or not) and God blessing or not blessing them according to their arrogance or humility; their dependence on God or on creature comforts. When they got obsessed with the blessings of life, the blessings dried up and when they cried out to God in sincere humility, God opened His hand of blessings to them again. God loves to bless us, but if the blessings pull us away from Him, He knows that isn't best for us, He is.

²The Spirit (literally "breath" in the original languages) of God is the outward manifestation of the passionate love of God between the Father and the Son as they behold the glory (beauty) of the other. This love is so all-powerful it is the foundation of the very existence of God Himself and all that flows from Him. God is love, and He is Spirit. And He is Spirit because He is love. 

For more on this click here.

When we are passionate about another, our excitement, heart rate, and rate of breathing go up as we behold the one we love. That very same kind of love is now directed and focused on us if we are in Christ.

What is it about us that God beholds, which creates this same passionate love for us? We are like God, i.e., in his image. God is most passionate about himself as a being of relationship between the Father, Son, and Spirit. Therefore, He's also passionate about us because we are like him, designed for a relationship with Him first. And out of that, relationships with other image bearers. 

We are also his children; the very sons and daughters of God (Christ is the firstborn of all God's children and our "big brother").

³How do we know when we are not captivated by love? When we do not respond in love to challenges or opportunities to love others. 

⁴In Christ God no longer deals with (relates to) us based on (according to) our rebellious unbelief but based only on (according to) his infinite love perfectly secured for us by Christ.

Christ's central message?

Once Christ officially began his ministry, what was His central message? 

"From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, 'Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand' " - Matt 4:17 - i.e. the kingdom is right at your doorstep. So get ready for it for its King is about to be ¹set up and established.

What time is "that time" being referred to above? The time right after his 40 days of testing in the wilderness. A ⁹testing that the Spirit ²led Him into right after the public announcement of his ministry at his baptism.

During his time in the wilderness, Jesus passed three tests by the deceiver (corresponding to the 3 failures of Adam and Eve, our original "parents"). This set the stage to announce His soon-coming kingdom and ⁸earned Him the right to be its King.

What is the kingdom of God (or heaven)? It is the rule and reign of ³love by Jesus - the ⁴King of love - over His followers i.e. His willing subjects.

Why does Jesus use the kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven interchangeably? Because they are one and the same. 

How?

It is a heavenly (blissful) kingdom because it is a kingdom that issues forth from love and is "governed" by and filled with ³love - for God is love. It is the ⁵arrival of heaven (i.e. Love/God) on earth which was inaugurated at the birth and incarnation of the Son of God, secured and sealed by his death and burial, and initiated by His resurrection (Death no longer has the last word, life does; life back from death) and will be fully implemented when Christ returns to earth to reign forever with those who have received His offer of life and love through the forgiveness earned for them by His life, death, and resurrection. 

Wherever God and His rule of love are present is a ⁶taste of heaven on earth (but only a taste for now...the full feast is later) i.e. a taste of joy and delight in the King's love which ultimately will lead to an uninterrupted, eternal, unobstructed, infinite feast of love and bliss i.e. heaven on earth.

How does this work? How is this different than the typical kind of kingly rule or kingdom?

Typically, a king reigns or rules by decree (law) under threat of punishment. If and when you violate a king's decree (law), you suffer the consequences. Those consequences can be anything from fines to imprisonment to execution. Fear of punishment is the primary motivation used to maintain compliance (law and order) in this typical kind of kingdom.

A rule (kingdom) of (or run by) love is completely different. Unlike a rule of law, which works by ⁷fear of punishment, rejection, and condemnation, a rule of love (or the law of love) creates within its subjects the desire to obey its king's directions (commands). His subjects willingly (delightfully) obey because they want to, not because they have to...they obey out of love for and trust in their King, not out of fear of punishment by their judge. Why? Because Christ bore the judgment for us for not properly honoring and loving Him as rightful King and not loving our neighbor - fellow image bearers of the King - as we were designed to.

Even though there are still consequences for not loving Him (and others) as deserved, under the rule of love they are not the consequences of rejection, condemnation, and judgment. They are consequences of correction as His beloved child. Correction designed to draw us closer to the King of love so we might experience His love more fully and freely display it more perfectly for His glory. Once Christ literally comes to earth to reign, we will be perfected like him, for we will see Him fully as He is in all His love. 

Under both a rule of law and a rule of love there are clear directions to follow on what is good and right conduct. The difference is the motivation that drives the behavior of its subjects. Under the rule of law, it is a fear of rejection, condemnation, punishment, and judgment. Under the rule of Christ, love and trust are the driving force behind true love-inspired obedience.

In light of all this, God calls us to enter His kingdom through the love of its humble king.

Matt 11:28 

"Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 take my yoke upon you and learn from Me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."

What rest? The rest from fear of rejection and condemnation and constantly having to seek life and love (i.e. affirmation from others) because we now have it fully and perfectly in God through Christ. All that is left is for us to accept his offer. Do you accept it?

It is appropriate and not insignificant that near the end of the bible we are extended the following invitation, 

"The Spirit and the Bride say, 'Come.' And let the one who hears say, 'Come.' And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price.' - 

Rev 22:17

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¹What would it take to establish this kingdom of love? The death and resurrection of Christ that will remove the barrier between God and man - i.e. he removed the legal consequences of our rebellious distrust of Him - so that his love could flow freely to his subjects and Christ's rule of love could be firmly and permanently established.

²Which makes the prayer Jesus taught His disciples all the more interesting.

Pray then like this: “Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. - Matt 6:9‭-‬13 ESV

The Father's will being done - i.e. His rule and reign as King - on earth as it is in heaven - was most fully demonstrated in the very person of Christ during His incarnation and time on earth. That which is of heaven - i.e. God and His Son - was fully displayed and manifested on earth in and through Christ as a human... a creature i.e. the incarnation or fleshing out of God himself among us in Christ while here on earth leads to his complete and ultimate physical reign on earth when He returns (and also our reign in and through Him).

Since the resurrection of Christ and the coming of his Spirit (of love and life), we are now the "fleshing out" of God before a watching world until He returns.

³And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, “Which commandment is the most important of all?” Jesus answered with the Shama, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” 

And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher. You have truly said that he is one, and there is no other besides him. And to love him with all the heart and with all the understanding and with all the strength, and to love one’s neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.” 

And when Jesus saw that the man had answered wisely, He said, “You are not far from the kingdom of God” - i.e. You understand that the essence of the Kingdom of God is love. Now live by it.

"And after that, no one dared to ask him any more questions." - Mark 12:28‭-‬34

The greatest and second commandment is the essence of the kingdom of God. And what is the essence of these commands? Love. The love of God and others.

⁴Christ earned his right to reign over His subjects by humbling himself as a servant and dying on behalf of the subjects He rules over. 

Christ our King cast himself into battle to fight and overcome evil to save his subjects and died. He did this knowingly and willingly. 

And then He came back to life. And because He did, those of us who have submitted to Him as our King will also rise to life after our death and rule along side Him on earth when He returns. 

Death is the inevitable result of rejecting the Giver of life. But Life is the inevitable result for those who accept that His death was on their behalf i.e. it was done to restore them back to the Giver of life they had rejected.

⁵The arrival of the Kingdom of God begins in the individual hearts of men and women when we place our trust in the King of love. But will be completed when God sets up His literal physical kingdom on earth at His return. 

⁶It isn't the full meal however until we sit at the feast with the King. A feast that will not be just a one-time meal but heaven itself will be a perpetual eternal feast of love that will never be interrupted or end. At that time he will usher in and fully establish his perfect rule and kingdom on Earth, where there are no more tears, pain, or dying... only love, joy, and bliss. In fact, a (maybe the) primary cause of the joy we experience now under God's rule (kingdom) of love is knowing we will one day experience his love fully and perfectly face to face without limit or interruption.

It is also a kingdom of hope. It is a sure hope (expectation) that we will fully experience what we now only have a taste of.

For an excellent article on the "already... but not yet" aspect of the kingdom click here.

For additional thoughts on this click here.

The arrogant seek to control and rule over the resources of creation but in the end, the meek will inherit the Earth. Why? They are humbly submitted to Earth's Creator, Sustainer, and true King and will use creation to honor Him as such.

⁷We are to fear God as children, not as criminals. This is a fear of correction for not listening to our Father's wise and loving instructions, not of condemnation and rejection for violating the law. A "spanking" hurts but when done out of love it is designed to bring us life. 

⁸Unlike us, Christ earned everything he received. Everything we receive is a gift i.e. by grace - earned for us and given to us by Christ. We couldn't earn it and because He did and extends what is rightfully His to us, we don't have to.

But he earned it nevertheless. How? He fulfilled the rightful requirements of the law because we were unable to - and assigns his complete record of perfect obedience to us as if it's ours - if we accept it. Do you accept his offer?

⁹It is worth noting that Christ encouraged us to pray that we not be tested by the evil one.

"And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil (evil one in the original)." Mat 6:13

He's encouraging us to pray we do not experience what Adam and Eve experienced or Job experienced or what Christ went through in the wilderness. Temptation (testing) is not God's preferred plan or design. These were all unique events with a specific purpose and not the norm.

Tests come and we can learn much from them but only because God can bring good out of evil. It is still evil and not what God created us for. 

Death, harm, and destruction are the fruit of our rebellion, not the fruit of our design. They are not the preferred experience he desires for us (and they will all be done away with in eternity). 

Evil is simply part of living in creation that is under bondage among broken humans, eagerly awaiting deliverance. If he want us to go through evil he would not have included this in the prayer he taught us.

A conversation regarding obedience

In Nov. of 2017 I posted the following on Facebook. 

"Why do we pursue God, out of love or fear? 

Both! 

Out of love because he first loved us. 

Out of fear because operating contrary to God's design (how and why he made us) always has an adverse effect (if not immediately, eventually)."

This resulted in an instructive conversation between Rick (a FB friend) and I. I am posting that conversation below to illustrate the misunderstanding, tension, and confusion around our pursuit of (obedience to) God in the hope of clarifying some of the dynamics of that pursuit.

Now to Rick's response and the conversation that followed:

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Rick: 

You mean you aren't a Christian Hedonist? :/ I'm not either :)

Other valid reasons to seek God...

God exists and is the source of all meaning, purpose, and value. Without God, there would be none of these in an objective sense.

God is the ultimate authority over all creation and deserves our utmost obedience to his will, his pleasure and his purpose.

God is the ultimate worth and he is worthy of our praise and worship. Our surrender to God's will is the first step towards truly worshipping God.

Jim: (In response, I sent Rick the following blog post on the dynamics of what moves us to pursue and obey God)

http://thotsaboutgod.blogspot.com/2017/02/an-anatomy-of-motivation.html

Rick quotes from the above blog article adding his comments below...

Rick: 

"An anatomy of motivation - There are two overall but opposite approaches we observe in scripture regarding our motivation to obedience. All underlying forms of motivation fall under these two. These two broader areas are...

· positive motivation
· negative motivation"

His added comments...

- These two categories of motivation are based on the idea that we can expect something good or we can expect something bad. Another option that I believe is important is to acknowledge the authority of God as a basis of motive. In this respect, it is not so much what we personally expect but who God objectively is that forms the basis. If we believe God exists, we can obey God simply because of God's authority, without even contemplating what we personally expect. For example. We are commanded to submit to God and obey God. I can do this simply because God has clearly commanded it and not necessarily for any other reason. Do you agree?

Jim:

Yes, but I believe there's a bit more to obedience than simple willpower. If you haven't read the rest of the article at the above link it hints at this. 

Paul also points out it is God who enables us to choose and desire to pursue him in vs 13 of the following: 

"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." Php 2:12-13

How does he do so? By appealing to self-interest. For example, we are told in Heb 11:6 "And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him." The appeal of this verse is not just that God exists but OUR (us/self) being rewarded. 

Another example is "to gain your life you must lose it." What's the appeal? Us gaining life. The verse simply tells us the best way that happens is by losing our life i.e. we don't find our life by seeking life but by seeking God who is life. 

There is a difference between self-interest and self-ISHNESS. Not distinguishing these causes confusion. Several posts on my blog touch on this. If interested let me know.

Rick: 

Those are interesting verses and I would not be opposed to reading your articles. Because there are so many scriptural aspects of obedience to God, to me this implies that there are many valid motives that can overlap and are not mutually exclusive. I believe that there is a danger of taking a verse like Heb 11:6 and suggesting that this one verse codifies our approach towards obedience to God. For example, there is the motive of love of God that Jesus stated was a valid motive:

"If you love me, keep my commands." John 14:16

The word love is from the Greek "agape" which is translated as a self-less benevolent and giving type of love. So in other words, our motive for obedience based on this verse is not self-interest but is based on pleasing God.

Jim:

Love is THE key motive to obedience. So the question becomes how and when do we love God i.e. what is the cause of (stirs up) our love for him. Scripture clearly teaches our love (the key motive "behind" obedience) is a RESPONSE to his love for us. 1 Jn 4:10 "In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins." In 1Jn 4:19 John goes on to say, "We love because he first loved us." We are not the initiators of love, God is.

This is also implied in John 15. It says without me "you can do nothing..." (vs 5) i.e. we can not bear fruit on our own. Fruit in the context is loving God and others (vs 12,17). So our loving God and others is based on and caused by our abiding in his love for us (vs 9). We can not love as God loves - i.e. sacrificially - otherwise. To say it another way, we are not the cause or source of love but the conduits of it.

Re: the Hebrews passage...it is simply an example, not a proof text. Self-interest is implied throughout scripture. His great offer is eternal life to us i.e. our eternal life. Even fear of the consequences for disobedience is the fear of US suffering. We do nothing apart from self-interest. 

Christ's very appeal to loving our neighbor is love for ourselves "...love your neighbor AS you love yourself..." He doesn't condemn our love of self (our desiring what is best for ourselves) he assumes it and makes his appeal based on that assumption.

The issue isn't our wanting what is best for us, it's how is that best accomplished. Through self-effort or in and by God i.e. through his love for us. 

I think the issue is we don't realize our greatest joy is IN God and recognizing the greatness of his glory i.e. our greatest joy (pleasure) and God's highest glory are not in opposition to each other but tied together. To say it another way, pursuing God and his highest glory IS our greatest joy (pleasure).

Rick: 

Jim Deal - "Self-interest is implied throughout scripture. His great offer is eternal life for US i.e. OUR eternal life." ...Christ's very appeal to loving our neighbor is love for ourselves "...love your neighbor AS you love yourself..." He doesn't condemn our love of self (our desiring what is best for us)

I'm sorry, but implications of our self-interest are always subservient to the interest of pleasing God in the whole of scripture, and plainly commanded as such, and to place our self-interest on equal grounds with pleasing God I believe is shown to be actually heretical based on traditional interpretations.

To take your first point, eternal life is epitomized by relationship together with God: "Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." (John 17:3) And relationship is defined as "being one" in the spirit: "I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one" (John 17:22) --- These verses do not imply that eternal life is based on focusing on the self or that the motive for eternal life is self-interest, rather, the focus is on interrelationship and unity for the glory of God, that is, mainly for GOD'S sake, not our own.

In your second point, you reference the second part of a two-part command and left out the most important first command: Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[a] 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] There is no commandment greater than these.” (Mark 12:30-31)

Matthew Henry clarifies the primacy of scriptural value:

"As we must, therefore, love God BETTER THAN ourselves, because he is Jehovah, a being infinitely better than we are, and must love him with all our heart, because he is one Lord, and there is no other like him; so we must love our neighbor AS OURSELVES, because he is of the same nature with ourselves;" (emphasis added). Here is Matthew Henry's full commentary on this verse:

2. That the second great commandment is, to love our neighbor as ourselves (v. 31), as truly and sincerely as we love ourselves, and in the same instances, and we must show it by doing as we would be done by. As we must therefore love God better than ourselves, because he is Jehovah, a being infinitely better than we are, and must love him with all our heart, because he is one Lord, and there is no other like him; so we must love our neighbour as ourselves, because he is of the same nature with ourselves; our hearts are fashioned alike, and my neighbour and myself are of one body, of one society, that of the world of mankind; and if a fellow-Christian, and of the same sacred society, the obligation is the stronger. Hath not one God created us? Mal. 2:10. Has not one Christ redeemed us?"

If we try to ignore or deny a direct commandment, that clearly states pleasing God (with others-centered agape love) is the highest commandment, and offer that self-interest is on par with or even above the command to please God, how is this not patently heterical?

"our greatest joy (pleasure) and God's highest glory are not in opposition to each other but tied together."

This is basically a toned-down re-phrasing of Piper's maxim. However, the phrase "God is not most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in him" is misleading because the true measure of God's glory is not our personal satisfaction. The highest measure of God's glory is our conformity with God's nature and will, which is most emphasized by conforming to God's nature and will, which is based on agape love and holiness.

Scripture advocates worshipping God in spirit and in truth:

"God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” (John 4:24).

Piper completely discounts many critical aspects of worship, such as affirming and meditating on truth, and heretically demands that the worship of God is based on emotions as an end in and of themselves:

"It can be done only when spontaneous affections arise in the heart. And these affections for God are an end in themselves. They are the essence of eternal worship" (p92 DG)

Jim, I am reading a brief but excellent new book on Piper titled "Christian Hedonism? A biblical examination of John Piper's teaching" by ES Williams, and I believe that it might help you to glean from his research some of the many critical scriptural errors of CH.

Jim:

Rick W Thanks for the feedback.

I don't disagree with anything you said.

Everything must be subservient to God simply because he is the cause of all things (i.e. a more than sufficient reason if there were no other one) "... For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen..." (Rom 11:36)

Nothing in scripture (regarding our obedience) is based on FOCUSING on self.

It sounds like you are equating self-interest with selfishness and that our interests are ABOVE Gods. I've said neither.

What I am saying is our (self's) best interest is IN God. God is our (self's) best interest.

My point is in order for us (self) to know and enjoy God, "self" is not set aside but fully engaged. We (us, self) give God the greatest glory when we (self) find him our greatest joy, treasure, pursuit etc. This isn't putting self above God at all. It is self delighting IN God above all things, vs self delighting in created things over and above God the Creator (our delighting in creation above God is the essence of self ISHNESS. It is seeking to make life work WITHOUT God i.e. through what I can obtain by myself and solely for myself. It is seeking meaning, purpose, joy, etc independent of God for my glory, not his).

However our (self) finding God to be more glorious than anything else "shows him off" (brings attention to his infinite glory, i.e. glorifies him). To believe and then act as if something is more valuable than God, dishonors him. When we find God our greatest delight and pursuit we are telling others, God is more important to me than anything else and therefore could be to you as well.

Regarding the greatest commandment, this actually underscores the point I am seeking to make. Loving our neighbor flows out of loving God first (which is the fruit of his love for us). It all starts with God, is through God and is for God i.e. for his glory e.g. Rom 11:36 

End of our FB conversation. 

In this conversation, we are dealing with very nuanced points. Facebook is generally not the best place for in-depth discussion and contemplation of such things. I say this because after looking this over there are things I did not address that I could have. Therefore I offer these additional thoughts.

Regarding obedience to God out of fear i.e. respect for God, even this is based on "self-interest" i.e. I wish to honor God out of respect for him and because he is worthy of all honor/respect but why do I respect Him?  Because he is all-wise, all-powerful, and just and I don't want something bad happening to me (self) if I don't honor him as such. This isn't selfish. It is rooted in our very being as God's image-bearer. Our being a creature who desires our own best interest is actually necessary in order for us to be able to enjoy and honor God who is most high and most delightful. 

For more on this point click here. 

Rick said, "I'm sorry, but implications of our self-interest are always subservient to the interest of pleasing God in the whole of scripture, and plainly commanded as such, and to place our self-interest on equal grounds with pleasing God I believe is shown to be actually heretical based on traditional interpretations."

This is a common misunderstanding and is hardest to grasp. God's highest glory and our greatest joy are not in competition or opposed to each other or that we can only do one or the other. So there are no "equal grounds." They are tied together but not equal because everything must start with God. Nothing happens if God were not all glorious. However, our greatest joy is God's highest glory. The more we exalt him - recognize His glory - the more we experience Him as He is and the greater our joy becomes. Joy is the result of recognizing and acting upon God's greatness - His infinite glory. We find him to be our greatest joy when we lift him up (glorify him) as the highest/greatest (most delightful) being of all beings or things and the only one worthy of our honor and greatest delight. This is not an "either/or" scenario. God's glory and our delight in God go hand in hand but in that order. It always must start with God, not us. If God were not the greatest of all beings, we would not and could not find the great joy that is God himself. And we are wired this way because this is how God designed us, so we might share in His glory as He does as Father and Son in by and through the Spirit. To enjoy God most we have to be most like Him without being God i.e. we are in His image.

Rick said:

Another option that I believe is important is to acknowledge the authority of God as a basis of motive. In this respect, it is not so much what we personally expect but who God objectively is that forms the basis. If we believe God exists, we can obey God simply because of God's authority, without even contemplating what we personally expect. For example. We are commanded to submit to God and obey God. I can do this simply because God has clearly commanded it and not necessarily for any other reason. Do you agree?"

Whether Rick deliberately intends to, the implication of what he is proposing is we have within ourselves the spiritual strength to obey God by simply willing ourselves to do so without God empowering us i.e. apart from his Love/Spirit. This is placing our will as the key (central) to obedience instead of God. However, God is the driving force behind our obedience, not our will. It is God who works in us "...both to will and to work for his good pleasure." Our will is an intricate part of obedience but it is not the central part, God is. Our will is vital in deciding (choosing) to believe God is who He claims to be and does (did and will do) what He promises/claims He will do. But this is choosing to believe is anchored into who God is generally and who He is for us specifically. It is based on faith in the character of God,  not faith based on faith in itself or how great our will is.

For a further discussion on this point click here.

The following verses clearly show the will and desire to obey God come from God, not us. Yes, it is our desires but desires that God "works" in and through us by revealing to us His great glory. 

Philippians 2:12-13 English Standard Version (ESV) 

12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Though we are in God's image which allows us (gives us the capacity) to honor and enjoy God, absent God's Spirit/Love we are dead to God. We are not the source/cause/initiators of sacrificial love. Only God is. We can only love sacrificially when we know God loves us sacrificially and "has our back" i.e. God honors and rewards us and all our actions when done for his honor.

For more discussions on obedience click here.  

For more discussion on how our worth is tied to God's click here. 

The "what" and "why" of our actions

To know whether our behavior is God-honoring or not, we must distinguish between our actions and our ¹motive.

We could also call this the "what" and "why" of our actions; what we do and why do we do it.

All believers agree that prayer is good. Yet Christ said do not pray like the Pharisees pray. Why? Because they prayed for the wrong reason, i.e. to be seen of men.

There is not just right conduct (what) but also right motive (why). "Right" conduct can occur for the wrong reason e.g. we can do ⁴"good" things ⁵to gain the praise of others.

Often we think we act (the what) for good reasons (our why) when our actions (what) are designed to maintain our independence from God (our why).

In order for good motives (why) to lead to good conduct/deeds (what), those deeds must be guided by ²truth. We must therefore ³confide in God - our Creator/Designer - to know what good conduct truly is. Who would know better what is best for us, if not our Creator and Designer? We are told our overarching ²design or chief end is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever. In so doing, we find our greatest fulfillment and joy. 

The good news is right motive ultimately leads to right conduct e.g. When you love God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength you will love your neighbor as yourselves. The later flows out of the former. When we are "plugged in" to God we become like him i.e. loving like God loves, as He designed us to.

The ordo salutis of good actions. 

For conduct to be good, the honor and glory of God must be our aim i.e. that which moves us to action; our motivation; the means and end of all we do.

The honor and glory of God will not be our aim until we understand the depth, height, and width of God's greatness and love for us.  

We will not see the depth and breadth of God's love until we understand what Christ did for us and why it was necessary. Understanding what Christ did tells us all we need to know about God and ourselves; His infinite love and our infinite need for it. 

We can never fully plumb the depths of the riches to be found in the work of Christ on our behalf. We must constantly explore it. This is why Paul prayed the following for the believers in Ephesus. 

Eph 3:14-21

For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, 15 from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named, 16 that according to the riches of his glory he may grant you to be strengthened with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith—that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 may have strength to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, 19 and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.

20 Now to him who is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think, according to the power at work within us, 21 to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, forever and ever. Amen.

Conclusion

Awareness of the true motives behind our conduct only comes with time, humility, and maturity. It comes as we see what great lengths God went to, through Christ to restore us to Himself; it is "to know experientially the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge." 

 

For a discussion on how glorifying God is the basis for morality, click here.

For a discussion on the harm of living independent of God click here

For a discussion on what Christ did for us click here.

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¹Distinguishing actions from motive was the key underlying truth Christ communicated in the beatitudes and other passages... "You say if a man does (i.e. the what) ______ he is wrong,  But I say if a man in his heart (i.e. the why) does... it is wrong." 

²But how do we determine what is true and right conduct? Good-appropriate behavior is given to us by our Designer. Appropriate behavior is determined by our design and according to it i.e. God created things to operate a certain way. When they do, they operate according to what or who they are and were created to be;  i.e. according to reality, truth.

³The primary way we confide in God is studying his promises given in and through Christ in scripture i.e. His word(s) of promise.

⁴I put "good things" in quotes because we are told whether we eat or drink or whatever we do, do all of it to the glory of God. This implies we can do these same actions NOT for the glory of God. In fact, we usually do.

This also tells us the most mundane daily routines are not neutral but either are done for God's glory or not.

⁵It is not wrong to be praised by others. If we do something praiseworthy, praise is deserved. The issue is if our motive for doing it is the praise of men rather than the praise of God, it is wrong. 

Nor is desiring the praise of God wrong. This is not about earning God's acceptance. We already have that in Christ. This is whether we bring pleasure to God for our faithfully living to honor Him. Without faith (and therefore faithful obedience) it is impossible to please - i.e. bring pleasure to God. So the opposite is also true. To not faithfully pursue God brings him sadness. 

Faithfully pursuing God gives him joy and pleasure, not unlike the joy and pleasure we experience when we see our kids do well because of our instructions and direction. They live in a way that honors us as their parents. We don't love them more for this but we do have greater delight in them for it.