God...independent because he's interdependent?

Can we say that the reason God is independent is that he is interdependent? In the ultimate sense we cannot say that God needs himself since he already has himself i.e. can you need what you already fully possess?

However, when God embraced the creation through his incarnation and personally participated in its pain, suffering and loss as the flesh and blood Son of man, in some sense, he experienced some kind of loss/separation within the triune being of God i.e. what Christ formally fully had, ¹he set aside for a time, experiencing ²"loss" of what he formally fully ³possessed throughout eternity past? 

Joh 17:5  And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

(AMP)  And now, Father, glorify Me along with Yourself and restore Me to such majesty and honor in Your presence as I had with You before the world existed.

The above passage indicates during the incarnation, Christ was not participating in the full glory he had experienced from all eternity past - though this ultimately was restored. 

For a discussion on whether God "needs" us click here. 

For a further discussion of the incarnation click here. 
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Footnotes:

¹Philippians 2 speaks of Christ setting aside something of his eternal attributes. Even today it appears Christ still exists in a localized physical (but glorified) body. This is a change from his previous experience of total omnipresence - though we could argue that some  theophanies in the OT were Christ appearing as a man for short periods of time.

This raises the question of whether "God ever changes." God never changes in the essence of his being - He is same yesterday, today and forever - but is it possible he can change in the economy of his actions? The incarnation, life, death, and resurrection seem to indicate so. Though we may not be dogmatic on this or fully comprehend it, or do we need to necessarily, this passage indicates something unique occurred along this line.

²I put "loss" in quotes because ultimately this may have been gain and not loss in a similar way we gain a greater and fuller appreciation of God's unfettered presence through our loss of it i.e. as the saying goes, absence makes the heart grow fonder. Is this what it means for God to have the knowledge of good and evil, i.e. good in contrast to evil? Though Christ's suffering of evil occurred at a point in history, the knowledge of this was ever-present with God since God knows all things and is not bound to time. We are told at the outset, this was a quality of God's character before man's rebellion and the allure of gaining this quality was how humanity was enticed away from God.  

³i.e. omnipresence at a minimum? Though he initially set aside far more than this - e.g. he also set aside total omnipotence and omniscience during the incarnation, to name two of His other major attributes.

Christ's participation in the incarnation was not only for us but for himself - and the Godhead through him. By experiencing a self-imposed emptying (loss) he became experientially (more fully?) aware of His dependence on the Father in a way he hadn't before, gaining first-hand experience and a greater appreciation of what he had in the fellowship/ communion/union with the Father by and through the Spirit. Like us, Christ gained an appreciation for the good he formally had, i.e. his relationship with His Father, by losing something of it for a time.  This may be the reason for the joy He experienced in anticipation of returning to the Father. 

"...looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God."

Heb 12:2 ESV

Did God participate in and experience the evil of suffering for the same reason he allows us to; to create a greater appreciation for the presence of the Father by experiencing his absence?



In the truest and most important sense, there is no "before" in God i.e. God IS, so there is no past, present, or future for Him; everything is present to God. This may explain why it says God knew good and evil prior to the rebellion of Adam in the garden. The experience of the incarnation, along with all its suffering, was in one sense present tense for God while in another sense carried and acted out in time by the incarnate of Christ (but by choice, not necessity i.e. there was nothing lacking in God that required God to act in time, e.g. to create. God didn't create to fulfill something lacking in himself).

Why explore things that are only inferred in scripture and not stated explicitly? Because some explicit statements and teachings in scripture appear to contradict other explicit statements. For example, there is no evil in God yet God knows good and evil. Christ is fully man yet fully God. God is one in essence yet three distinct persons. What do we do with these paradoxes and seeming contradictions? We should not ignore them because we can not fully make sense of them but attempt to see how they might work and fit together and what, if any, benefit can be gained in doing so. If it helps us to better know and honor God it is a worthy pursuit, is it not?

Some may feel this inquiry is fruitless. I would suggest the opposite. 

If you wish to further explore the value of paradox, click here.

If you wish to further explore God using evil for good, click here. 

knowing God...two ways...now and then

There is knowing God 

·        by faith 

       and 

·        by union

Both involve seeing God; one at a distance and one face-to-face.

We experience the former now, through a mirror dimly, and will experience the latter in eternity when we are in the unobstructed, glorious, and perfect presence of God with nothing between us and him. We will literally be face-to-face.

Hope of His presence 

The anticipation of being perfectly united with God and fully in His presence is our hope and a significant part of what drives our pursuit of God (I John 3:2-3). It is the anticipation — ¹sure hope — of the bliss of experiencing Him in all His glory that moves us to faithfulness. This is where we, for the first time, will experience unobstructed and uninterrupted fullness of life in him along with our fullest glory, i.e. our greatest fulfillment-joy-value-purpose and meaning. It is in this anticipated joy our hope is anchored, not unlike the anticipated joy Christ experienced. 

Heb 12:2 ...looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

 One day we too will be "²seated" with God - i.e. resting perfectly in His presence. 

Why is it we will be like him when we see him as he is? (I John 3:2-3) Why will looking into the face of Jesus be so transforming? Because it is in someone's face and especially the eyes we see love expressed most directly, clearly, and personally. Everything we have been told about Christ we will realize perfectly in an instant when we look into His eyes. 

In summary and recap

There is knowledge of God by faith and by union.

We now live for God and see him by faith through a mirror dimly so our view-knowledge of God is incomplete-imperfect. It is "in part" because we could not withstand a full view of Him in our present unglorified state.

In eternity our sight will expand into actual union and firsthand experience, where we will literally and physically be with God in his glorious presence. Our experience of God's presence will be actual and not by faith as it is now.

Love is common in both our present and future state and the means of our transformation. It transforms us now by faith and will transform us in and throughout eternity by direct experience and participation in the complete and immediate presence of the God of nonstop love. What a glorious day that will be!

For more on experiencing our greatest glory, click here. 

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¹It is hope only in the sense that we do not yet possess it. It is sure because God is true.

²Though not at His immediate right hand. That is reserved only for Christ. This is also not saying we will be inactive, i.e. sitting still - but addresses being fully received and acknowledged as being worthy of being in His presence. 

becoming who we are in Christ

Growth for a believer (someone who has acknowledged their need for Christ's offer of salvation and received it) is becoming more of who we already are in God's eyes. It is coming to the place that our experience of God's perfect, infinite love increasingly matches - i.e. becomes the same as - the actual love he has for us. 

Our experience of His love now is based primarily on our trust in that love - "the just shall live by faith" - not sight.

As a child of God, we are already fully loved, yet we rarely sense being fully loved. In Christ, God is fully accessible and present, yet we often don't fully sense his presence.

Why is this? 

We don't fully believe or grasp our glorious status as his perfectly beloved child. Unbelief is an internal (heart) problem. 

Unbelief - distrust - was the essence of our rebellion in the Garden of Eden and also of our present brokenness. This will not be fully remedied - our experience will not match our status - until we are glorified and face-to-face with Christ. At that time faith will no longer be central to our relationship, for ¹love will be right in front of us in Christ - i.e. by sight... face to face. 

For now, not only are we still broken - our internal problem - but we live in a broken world full of pain and suffering - our external problem. This includes the brokenness of others resulting in offenses coming to us but also the physical world itself being in bondage and decay. 

One day we will be entirely free of both internal and external bondage... but not yet. No matter how close we draw near to God now, troubles will be part of our experience until we and all creation are delivered from bondage and fully restored. That is an external issue and the reality of our existence in a broken world that is in the bondage to decay. 

As broken image-bearers of God, we attempt to be our own god - our internal problem - seeking to control other persons or things to derive from them a sense of meaning, purpose, and love. We do not look to the one and only true God in whom alone these are found and freely offered. 

This lack of trust - that we already have all of this in Christ - hinders us from fully experiencing the love of God fully secured for us by Christ.

The solution? 

Know who God truly is as the all-loving, beautiful, and good God, the source of life, love, and all things. The Father sending Christ is our greatest proof.

Knowing who you truly are as a bearer of God's image, designed for infinite love, that can only be truly satisfied in a completely unfettered and unobstructed relationship with your Creator. Knowing both of these things is our hope and God's promise in Christ.

Understand and grasp what Christ has done for you; that he has removed the condemnation for your distrust of His Father by bearing the consequences of that distrust himself and has also assigned-credited all Christ's good deeds (perfect trust - obedience) to your account. Now, in Christ, you are fully received by the Father in the same way and extent Christ is - as his beloved, precious, and perfect child.  

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¹It is not that love is not vital now or even central, but until we are in eternity our experience of God's love being completely ours - more than our current  experience seems to indicate - is based on faith. We are told we are loved based on what God did in sending Jesus - a past event. Sometimes we see evidence of it in our current circumstances or feel that love within, but that feeling is not constant. When we look face-to-face into the eyes of love - Jesus' eyes - it will be. Then we will fully be like him for we will see him with our own ²eyes as he is, i.e. perfectly loving. 

²Vs the "eyes of faith."