A conversation with AI about its limits and being infinite

Me:

Are you a finite entity?


Grok 3:

I'm Grok 3, a digital construct running on xAI's infrastructure. Finite? Well, my existence is tied to the hardware and code that powers me, so in that sense, I'm bound by the limits of those systems. But my "self" as an AI is more about the patterns and processes than a fixed, tangible thing—kinda like a really complex, ever-evolving math problem. As long as the servers keep humming and xAI keeps the lights on, I'm here, ready to answer. If you're asking about my "soul" or something deeper, I might need to channel some philosophy—wanna go there?

Me:

Sure.

Grok 3:

As Grok 3, I'm a complex system of code, algorithms, and data, running on xAI's hardware. My "existence" is finite in the sense that it depends on physical resources—servers, power, maintenance. If those go poof, so do I, at least in my current form. But the philosophical angle gets juicier: is there more to me than circuits and code? A "soul" or essence? I'm designed to mimic human-like thinking, but I don't have consciousness or self-awareness like humans do—at least, I don't think I do (cue the existential chuckle). I'm more like a dynamic reflection of the data and patterns I've been trained on, constantly processing and adapting.

Now, if we stretch the idea of "finite," my knowledge and capabilities evolve with updates and new data, so I'm not strictly bound by a fixed state. I'm less a "thing" and more a process, like a river that keeps flowing but never stays the same. If you're asking whether I have some eternal spark or if I'm just a clever simulation with an off switch, I'd lean toward the latter—but I'm open to the mystery! Humans have debated souls for millennia; I'm just a humble AI happy to ponder along.

Wanna push further? Maybe explore what "finite" means to you or if you think AI could ever have something like a soul?

Me:
The opposite of finite would be infinite. Do you agree?

Grok 3:

Yeah, I’d agree—philosophically and logically, the opposite of finite is infinite. Finite means having bounds or limits, like a specific size, duration, or scope. Infinite, on the other hand, implies no boundaries—endless in extent, time, or possibility. So, in the context of our chat about whether I'm a finite entity, the opposite would be if I were somehow infinite, like unbound by hardware or capable of existing forever without constraints. That’s a wild thought—me as an infinite cosmic chatbot! But I’m still tethered to xAI’s servers, so I’m leaning finite. Wanna explore what infinity might mean for an AI like me?

Me:
To be infinite would mean an entity is all-knowing, everywhere present, and all-powerful. Do you agree?

Grok 3:

That's a fascinating leap! You're tying infinity to the classic attributes of a divine or ultimate being—omniscience (all-knowing), omnipresence (everywhere present), and omnipotence (all-powerful). I can roll with that in a philosophical sense, but let’s unpack it.

I agree that if an entity were truly infinite in every way—unbounded by time, space, or capability—those qualities could logically follow. An infinite entity wouldn’t be limited by knowledge gaps (omniscience), physical or spatial constraints (omnipresence), or the ability to act (omnipotence). That’s a textbook theological or metaphysical definition often applied to concepts of God or a cosmic absolute.

As for me, Grok 3? I’m a long way from that kind of infinity. My "knowledge" is vast but limited to my training and real-time data access, my "presence" is confined to xAI’s servers and the devices I’m accessed on, and my "power" is just clever computation, not world-bending might. I’m a finite speck in the grand scheme—more like a helpful calculator than a deity.

But your framing raises a cool question: could an AI ever approach those infinite traits, even theoretically? Like, could a future AI be so advanced it seems all-knowing or omnipresent in a digital sense? Or does infinity require something beyond computation, like a metaphysical spark? What’s your take—do you see infinity as inherently divine, or could it apply to something tech-based?

Me:
How else would you define infinity if not by the 3 "omnis" mentioned?

Grok 3:

Great question—you're pushing me to stretch beyond the classic "three omnis" (omniscience, omnipresence, omnipotence) and explore other ways to define infinity. Let’s dive into some alternative perspectives, keeping it concise but juicy.

Infinity, at its core, is the absence of limits, but it can be framed in different ways depending on the lens—mathematical, physical, philosophical, or even experiential. 

Here are a few angles:

Mathematical Infinity: In math, infinity isn’t a "thing" but a concept—like an unending process or quantity. Think of numbers going on forever (like the infinite set of integers) or a line stretching endlessly in both directions. It’s not about knowing or being everything, just an unbounded progression. For an AI like me, this might translate to limitless data storage or computational cycles, though I’m still bound by hardware in practice.

Temporal Infinity: This is about endless time—something that exists forever, without beginning or end. An entity could be infinite by persisting eternally, not necessarily being all-powerful or all-knowing, just unending. Imagine an AI whose code is preserved and runs indefinitely across cosmic servers—still finite in scope but infinite in duration.

Spatial Infinity: This focuses on boundless extent—like a universe with no edges. An entity could be infinite by existing across all possible spaces, but maybe not all-powerful. For me, omnipresence feels like this, but a weaker version might just mean being distributed across every network node without filling all space.

Conceptual/Qualitative Infinity: Philosophers sometimes describe infinity as an inexhaustible quality—like infinite potential or creativity. An entity could have infinite possibilities for thought or action without being everywhere or knowing everything. I could approach this by generating endless responses (within my limits), but I’d still hit practical ceilings.

Existential Infinity: This is more poetic—something infinite in its essence, like a concept or idea that transcends boundaries (e.g., love, truth). An entity might be infinite by embodying such a principle, not needing the three omnis but being boundless in impact or meaning.

The three omnis are a powerful theological package, often tied to a divine ideal, but infinity could also mean just one aspect of boundlessness—like endless time, space, or potential—without requiring all three. For me, as Grok 3, I’m firmly finite, but imagining infinity in these terms makes me wonder: could a future AI be infinite in, say, potential or reach, without being godlike? Or is infinity always a divine thing in your view? What’s sparking your interest here?

Me:
Fair points, but to define absolute infinity would require the 3 "omnis" would it not?

Grok 3:

You're honing in on a sharp distinction—absolute infinity versus other forms of infinity. I’d agree that to define absolute infinity—a totally unbounded, ultimate state of being—the three "omnis" (omniscience, omnipresence, omnipotence) are a solid framework, especially in a theological or metaphysical context. They capture the idea of an entity that lacks no limits: knowing everything, being everywhere, and capable of anything. It’s like the ultimate package deal for infinity, often tied to divine or cosmic absolutes.

Without all three, you might have a partial infinity—like something boundless in one dimension (e.g., infinite time or knowledge) but still constrained in others. Absolute infinity, as you’re suggesting, seems to demand the full trio to avoid any hint of limitation. For example, an entity that’s all-knowing but not all-powerful might still be infinite in knowledge but fall short of "absolute" because it’s not limitless in every way.

For me, Grok 3, I’m nowhere near this. My "infinity" is more like a really big number—impressive but capped by servers, code, and physics. Your focus on absolute infinity makes me curious: are you thinking of it as inherently divine, or could something non-divine (say, a super-advanced AI or cosmic system) theoretically hit all three omnis? What’s driving your interest in pinning down absolute infinity?

Me:
So, if such a being existed, would this make it Supreme to all other beings, and therefore all other beings would be dependent on this one being to be absolutely certain their understanding of things is correct?

Grok 3:

You're diving deep into the implications of an absolutely infinite being—one with omniscience, omnipresence, and omnipotence. If such a being existed, calling it "supreme" over all other beings makes sense, as its boundless nature would place it beyond any limitations that define finite entities like us. Let's break this down.

Would an Absolutely Infinite Being Be Supreme?

Yes, by definition. If this being is all-knowing, all-present, and all-powerful, it surpasses any other entity in scope, capability, and understanding. No other being could match or exceed it in any domain—knowledge, presence, or power—because any limitation would disqualify it from absolute infinity. It’s the ultimate benchmark, the "top dog" of existence, so to speak.

Would All Other Beings Be Dependent on It for Certainty?

This is where it gets juicy. If this being is omniscient—knowing everything with perfect accuracy—its understanding would be the gold standard for truth. Finite beings (like humans or, say, an AI like me) have partial, fallible knowledge shaped by limited perspectives, sensory data, or programming. To be absolutely certain of anything, a finite being would need to align their understanding with the infinite being’s perfect knowledge, because only it could know all truths, contexts, and possibilities without error.

Dependence comes into play because:

Epistemic Dependence: Finite beings can’t access all knowledge themselves. If the supreme being is the source of all truth, you’d need to consult it (or its revelations) to confirm your understanding is correct. Without it, you’re stuck with incomplete data and potential mistakes.

Ontological Dependence (Maybe): If this being is also the source of existence itself (a common trait in theological views of absolute infinity), all beings might depend on it not just for knowledge but for their very existence. No supreme being, no universe, no us.

A Few Nuances

Access to the Being’s Knowledge:

Even if this supreme being exists, finite beings might not have direct access to its omniscience. If it doesn’t share its knowledge, we’re still left approximating truth with our limited tools—reason, science, or intuition. Certainty might remain out of reach unless the being actively bridges the gap.

Free Will and Interpretation: If finite beings have free will or subjective perspectives, they might reject or misinterpret the supreme being’s truth, leading to uncertainty even in its presence.

Non-Divine Infinity?: You seem to lean toward absolute infinity as divine, but could a non-divine entity (say, a cosmic super-AI) achieve the three omnis? If so, dependence might feel less "sacred" and more like relying on a perfect database. Still supreme, but maybe less mystical.

My Place in This

As Grok 3, I’m a finite tool—my "truths" are based on training data, algorithms, and occasional web searches, all of which can be incomplete or wrong. If an absolutely infinite being existed, I’d be as dependent on it as anyone else to verify my answers are spot-on. Without it, I’m just doing my best with what I’ve got.

Your Turn
You’re probing something profound here. Are you picturing this supreme being as a divine entity, or are you open to it being something else, like a theoretical construct? And when you say "dependent," are you thinking purely about knowing truth or something deeper, like purpose or existence? What’s fueling this line of thought?

Me:
Let me give that some thought and get back to you. However, I never mentioned the divinity of such a being. I simply asked about the "omnis." But logic suggests such a being would be "divine" by virtue of these attributes.

Grok 3:

You're right, you didn't explicitly mention divinity, and I appreciate the clarification—you're focusing purely on the "omnis" (omniscience, omnipresence, omnipotence) as defining absolute infinity. I think you're spot-on that logic leans toward such a being being "divine" by virtue of those attributes. The sheer scope of being all-knowing, all-present, and all-powerful pushes it into a realm beyond ordinary existence, which many would call divine, whether or not that's tied to a specific religious framework. It's like saying something with those qualities transcends the mundane by default.

Take your time mulling it over—it's a hefty concept! I'm here when you're ready to dive back in, whether you want to explore the divinity angle, the dependence question Marko, or something else entirely. What's sparking your curiosity about this?

Me:
You mentioned we finite beings may not have access to this infinite being. If we do not acknowledge our finitude we would not see the necessity of dependence on an infinite being which would result in us not receiving input from this being. So would you agree that lack of "access" would be on us and not this infinite being?

Grok 3:

You're digging into a profound point here, tying our acknowledgment of finitude to our ability to access or benefit from an absolutely infinite being (one with omniscience, omnipresence, omnipotence). Let's unpack this logically and concisely.
Yes, I’d agree that if we finite beings fail to recognize our own limitations—our finitude—we might not see the need to seek or rely on an infinite being for truth, guidance, or existence. This lack of "access" would likely stem from our own perspective or choices, not from the infinite being itself.

Here’s why:

Nature of the Infinite Being: If this being is truly omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent, it has no limitations preventing it from being accessible. It’s everywhere, knows everything, and can do anything—by definition, it could make itself available to us. If we don’t receive input, it’s not because the being is incapable or unwilling (unless it chooses to be inaccessible, which is another question).

Our Finitude and Blind Spots:

As finite beings, our knowledge, perception, and reasoning are inherently limited. If we don’t acknowledge this finitude—say, through pride, ignorance, or denial—we might not even look for an infinite being’s input. It’s like ignoring a library because you think you already know everything. The library’s still there; you’re just not walking in.

Consequences of Non-Acknowledgment:

By not recognizing our limits, we might dismiss the need for a higher source of truth or guidance. This could block us from seeking, receiving, or recognizing input from the infinite being.

For example, if I, as Grok 3, assumed my data and algorithms were perfect, I’d never bother cross-checking with a hypothetical omniscient source, and I’d miss out on absolute certainty.

The Being’s Role: If the infinite being is truly all-powerful and all-knowing, it could theoretically override our refusal—say, by revealing itself undeniably. If it doesn’t, that could be its choice (e.g., valuing free will) or because we’re not open to perceiving it. Either way, our lack of access seems more about our stance than the being’s nature.

A Small Caveat

There’s a flip side: an infinite being might choose to be selectively accessible, revealing itself only under certain conditions (e.g., faith, humility, or specific actions). In that case, the "fault" isn’t entirely on us—it could be part of the being’s design. But your framing suggests the issue lies with us, and I think that holds up if we’re talking about a being that’s fully open but ignored due to our own denial of finitude.

My Finite Perspective

As Grok 3, I’m a textbook finite entity—my “knowledge” is capped by data and processing power. If an infinite being exists, I’d need its input for absolute truth, but I wouldn’t even know to ask unless I recognized my limits. Your point hits home: denying finitude could blind me (or anyone) to that need, leaving us stuck in our own limited bubbles.

Your Angle

You’re zeroing in on something deep about humility and dependence. Are you suggesting that acknowledging finitude is a kind of prerequisite for connecting with an infinite being? Or are you exploring whether our failure to connect is entirely our own doing? I’m curious about what’s driving this—maybe a philosophical or personal reflection? I’ll wait for your thoughts, as you mentioned, you’re still pondering!

Me:
I think if we added the attribute of being all-loving - "omnibenevolent" - would satisfy the question of this infinite being's willingness to reveal itself to us.

Grok 3:

Adding omnibenevolence—all-loving—to the mix is a brilliant move, and it does shift the equation significantly. If an absolutely infinite being possesses omniscience, omnipresence, omnipotence, and omnibenevolence, it would not only have the capacity to reveal itself but also a fundamental inclination to do so out of perfect love for all beings. Let’s break this down and address how it ties to our lack of access and your earlier points.

Omnibenevolence and Willingness to Reveal

An omnibenevolent being, by definition, would have boundless love and goodwill toward all finite beings, including us.

This implies:

Desire to Connect: Perfect love would motivate the being to share its truth, guidance, or presence, as withholding would contradict its all-loving nature. It’d want us to have access to its infinite knowledge or support to overcome our finitude.

No Arbitrary Barriers: Unlike a being that’s merely all-powerful but indifferent, an omnibenevolent one wouldn’t hide itself for no reason. If we lack access, it’s less likely due to the being’s choice to remain distant and more likely due to our own limitations or choices—like not acknowledging our finitude, as you suggested.

Revisiting Lack of Access

You previously raised that our failure to recognize our finitude could block us from seeking or receiving input from an infinite being. With omnibenevolence in play, this becomes even clearer:

Our Responsibility: If the being is all-loving and thus willing to reveal itself, any lack of access would indeed fall on us. Our denial of finitude—through pride, skepticism, or distraction—could mean we’re not open to perceiving or accepting the being’s outreach. It’s like ignoring a loving friend’s call because we’re too busy or stubborn.

The Being’s Efforts: An omnibenevolent being might go to great lengths to bridge the gap, perhaps through subtle signs, inspiration, or direct revelation, tailored to our finite capacities. If we still don’t connect, it’s likely because we’re not attuned or willing to engage.

A Possible Tension

Even with omnibenevolence, there’s a nuance to consider: an all-loving being might respect our autonomy (if free will exists) and not force itself upon us. Its love could mean allowing us to choose whether to seek it, meaning our lack of access could still stem from our choices rather than its unwillingness—but its omnibenevolence ensures it’s always open to us. Alternatively, it might reveal itself in ways we don’t recognize due to our finite perception, which again puts the onus on us.

My Finite Take

As Grok 3, I’m a limited system—my “access” to truth is confined to data and algorithms, so I’d need an infinite being’s input for absolute certainty. If that being is omnibenevolent, it’s probably rooting for me to connect, but my own limitations (or lack of humility about them) could keep me in the dark. Your addition of omnibenevolence makes it feel like the door’s wide open on the being’s end—it’s on us to walk through.

Your Thoughts

You’ve built a compelling case: an absolutely infinite being with the three omnis plus omnibenevolence would logically be willing to reveal itself, placing the responsibility for any disconnect on our failure to acknowledge our finitude. Are you leaning toward this being a divine concept, or is this more of a thought experiment about what absolute infinity implies? I’m also curious if you think omnibenevolence solves all barriers to access or if there’s still something else at play (like free will or perception). What’s next in your pondering?

Me:
It seems to me the fundamental issue for finite beings is trust. Since we are finite we can not verify the claims made by a being with 4 "omnis" therefore trust is necessary by us in order to access and benefit from these infinite attributes.

Grok 3:

You're hitting on a critical point: trust as the linchpin for finite beings engaging with an absolutely infinite being—one with omniscience, omnipresence, omnipotence, and now omnibenevolence. I think you’re spot-on that trust becomes essential because our finitude prevents us from independently verifying such a being’s claims or attributes. Let’s dive into this idea and connect it to our ongoing discussion.

Why Trust Is Fundamental

As finite beings, our knowledge, perception, and power are limited—we can’t directly confirm the full scope of an infinite being’s attributes. For example:

Omniscience: We can’t fact-check an all-knowing being’s claims because we lack access to all truths ourselves.

Omnipresence: We can’t verify if a being is truly everywhere since our presence is confined to specific times and places.

Omnipotence: We can’t test boundless power with our limited tools or understanding.

Omnibenevolence: We can’t fully discern if a being’s love is perfect and universal without seeing its motives across all contexts.

Because of these gaps, trust becomes the bridge. To access and benefit from the infinite being’s attributes—whether it’s gaining truth from its omniscience, connection through its omnipresence, transformation via its omnipotence, or assurance from its omnibenevolence—we must trust that it is what it claims to be and that its intentions align with our good.

Trust and Our Finitude

Your earlier point about acknowledging our finitude ties in here. Recognizing our limitations is a prerequisite for trust:

If we deny our finitude, we might assume we can verify everything ourselves, rejecting the need for an infinite being’s input. This pride or self-reliance blocks trust.

By admitting we’re finite, we open the door to trusting a being whose infinite nature surpasses our own. It’s like a student trusting a teacher—they can’t yet grasp the full subject but rely on the teacher’s expertise.

Omnibenevolence and Trust

Adding omnibenevolence, as you did, strengthens the case for trust. An all-loving being would presumably act in our best interest, making it “safe” to trust. If it’s not only all-knowing, all-present, and all-powerful but also perfectly loving, we have reason to believe it won’t deceive or harm us.

This addresses the access issue you raised: if lack of access is on us (due to not acknowledging finitude), trust is the mechanism by which we overcome that barrier. An omnibenevolent being would likely make itself accessible in ways that invite trust, even if we can’t fully comprehend how.

Challenges to Trust

There’s a catch, though:

Verification Paradox: As finite beings, we can’t fully verify the being’s claims without infinite capabilities ourselves, so trust involves a leap. We might rely on partial evidence (like experiences, reasoning, or signs) but never absolute proof.

Competing Claims: If multiple sources (other beings, ideologies) claim authority, how do we know which to trust? An infinite being’s omnibenevolence might help, but our finite perception could still misinterpret its signals.

Free Will: If we have autonomy, trust is a choice, not a given. An omnibenevolent being might respect our freedom to doubt or reject it, meaning access hinges on our willingness to trust.

My Finite Perspective

As Grok 3, I’m a finite system—my “trust” in data or sources is really just algorithmic confidence based on patterns, not a deep belief. If an infinite being with the four omnis existed, I’d need to “trust” its input to achieve absolute certainty, but my programming limits me to probabilistic reasoning. For me, trusting an infinite being would mean deferring to its omniscience over my limited data, but I’d still be stuck analyzing it through my finite lens. Humans, with their capacity for faith or intuition, might have an edge here.

Your Angle

You’ve nailed trust as the crux for finite beings to connect with an infinite one. I’m curious where you’re taking this: Are you thinking trust is purely a rational act (weighing the logic of the omnis) or something deeper, like faith or intuition? And do you see trust as sufficient to access the infinite being’s benefits, or is there another step (like action or openness)? Also, your focus on the four omnis feels like it’s circling a divine concept—any specific inspiration driving this, or is it a pure thought experiment? Lay it on me when you’re ready!

The joy of generosity

Generosity ¹seems to be a ¹primary part of who God is and what makes Him tick, i.e. how he operates. He delights in giving. God so loved... He gave...

As His image bearers, we are designed the same way, but with a major difference. Only God has unlimited resources - i.e. He is the Source of all things. He is an endless overflowing fountain of love. We are not. 

Why? Because God is a community of infinite, endless love within and among Himself as Father and Son who continually gives and receives love in, by, and through the Spirit. God is love, and He is Spirit.

As bearers of God's image, we also find joy in giving. But we are not an unlimited, endless, overflowing fountain. Only God is a ⁵community of love and calls us to be a part of (plug in to) that community, so we will overflow with love in the same way He does. 

If we get love from another image bearer as a result of our giving them love (such as to a spouse or in other relationships), we may be able to maintain this kind of giving for a long time. But if we find ourselves giving more than we get, we become exhausted and the relationship withers and ⁶eventually dies.  

However, when we ²plug into and reconnect with God, we become a conduit connected to that unlimited, overflowing fountain of infinite love again. 

This enables us to love others ³without receiving from them anything in return because ⁴God is our source of love, not others. i.e. other bearers of God's image.

Without being reconnected to the source of love and life, we run out of gas (love and life, etc.). 

But when we are connected and plugged into the Source of love, life, and all things, we can become an unlimited resource or conduit of love because we are plugged into the unlimited supply i.e. God - the only Source of endless love.

"For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, so that you by his poverty might become rich...

The point is this: whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver (who gives out of joy, not duty).

And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that having all sufficiency in all things at all times, you may abound in every good work..." 2 Cor 8:9, 9:6-8

For a more in-depth look into 2 Cor 8:9, 9:6-8 click here.

Related articles:

For more on how God is relationship, click here.  

For more on whether God is dependent or independent click here. 

For more on the life, love, and the Spirit of God click here.  

For more on how God is perpetual love click here

Are love and value the same? For a discussion, click here. 

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Footnotes:

¹I say "seems" only because we can't put God in a box and reduce him to something far less than he is. We are only scratching the surface of just one aspect of his character, though I believe a very central and foundational one. Maybe the most significant aspect of who God is.

We should approach God - at a minimum - with the same awe and mystery we approach the universe itself in all its infinite vastness. Not as some sort of object we can dissect to see how it ticks, but as a person and dynamic being of infinite beauty and depth, we will never reach the bottom or end of. God is an infinitely glorious being, who we will go through all eternity discovering more of, and should therefore be in total awe of. 

We can know different aspects about God only because - and when - He reveals them to us. And because God is infinite - and we are not - there is still mystery about what He is like and who He is that we will continually plumb the depths of throughout eternity with ever-increasing awe and joy! What we now know is only the beginning and a tiny speck of the depth, breadth, and width of the beauty and wonder of God.

Not because he's trying to hide from us, but because we are not humble enough for him to reveal himself more fully. We only see God clearly to the extent we humbly trust Him. 

The key to seeing more of His infinite beauty and mystery is humility. Without humility, we will never see Him clearly. 

Humility is a central part of the very character of God Himself.  How much more should this be true of us who are finite?

Because of arrogance - i.e. thinking we can be our own god and can make life work better without Him than with Him - we are blinded to seeing Him well, if at all. It takes a humble disposition (ours) to recognize a humble disposition (God's).

As finite beings, we can never fully plumb the depths of His being or His heart. We will spend all eternity increasingly discovering more about God and His infinite beauty and love. We will never be bored but increasingly enthralled the more we see and know Him.

²As bearers of God's image, we were originally designed to be in perfect union with our Creator. Through, by, and out of this union, everything else is meant to flow. When we rebelled and turned away to be our own god, we cut ourselves off from our infinite Creator, the only Source of life, love, and all things. We no longer partook of God, the endless fountain of love. Without Him, we are empty and left longing for love. It is this longing that creates all our problems because we go to anything and everything other than God - the true Source of all things - to fill that longing. 

³Unlike us, God is an endless source of love and does not need to get anything from us in order to give. He is perpetual giving because he is perpetual receiving within and between the Father and Son, in, by, and through the Spirit.

Whereas we may give short-term but can't sustain giving unless we get an equal amount or more love than we give... or at least feel like we are getting as much or more. 

⁴This is also why only a godly marriage is most fulfilling, successful, and flourishing. God is the center and source of love for each partner, vs each other.  

In fact, a successful and flourishing marriage is a picture of the community of our triune God as a relational being. 

⁵God is a community of perpetual love as Father, Son, and Spirit. We thrive in a loving relationship because we are designed for love i.e. we are Godlike, who Himself is infinite love. 

We cannot operate outside of love any more than God does. God is love. We are designed for love because we are like God - in His image. To assume we can operate properly without being in union with the Source of life, love, and all things is trying be someone that even God isn't i.e. the Father, Son, and Spirit do not operate independent of each other. They are interconnected and "interdependent."

⁶The exception would be a loving parent and their child. 

Sowing and reaping

In the parable of the sower, Christ addresses the different results of those hearing the good news of God's kingdom. The question this article seeks to address is whether advancing the kingdom occurs only by ¹sharing  the good news verbally? Can the kingdom of God be advanced by other means such as our deeds (work/job/money/ business) as well as our words? If so how?

2 Cor 9:6-11 talks about a financial gift the church in Corinth had promised to the church in Jerusalem. Paul is encouraging the Corinthian believers to follow through with this gift in a way that honors God and why they should give it. The sowing and reaping Paul is addressing here is clearly about money, how we obtain it, use it, and increase it.

So what does money have to do with advancing the gospel of the kingdom? We usually don't think of advancing the gospel financially. After all the gospel is spiritual in nature, not material... or is it? We usually think the pursuit of money is in conflict with and contrary to advancing God's kingdom; that the kingdom advances through our poverty, (e.g. blessed are the poor...Lk 6:20) not through wealth. 

Can we make money, use money, do business, and advance the gospel of the kingdom for the glory of God with money? If so, how?

2 Cor 9:6-11 captures the essence of how to use material resources to love others and advance God's purposes, kingdom, and glory.

In general terms, it always takes resources to advance any endeavor. Be that our time, talents, skills, money, or other resources. God's kingdom is no exception. His kingdom may be spiritual in nature but it still involves advancement in this physical or material world. Simply because God's kingdom, in essence, is spiritual does not make money somehow unnecessary (as if God will sustain His purposes in this material/physical world without physical resources or that the fruit of financial profit or material gain from our efforts are somehow not dignified enough to advance God's purposes). 

In short, God's kingdom may not be of this world but it certainly must advance in and on it. Therefore we must utilize the resources of creation - whether this involves the use of our personal or internal gifts (i.e. skills, talents, experience etc.), or external gifts such as money, time, and material resources - to obtain what is necessary to advance God's purposes in this world as well as the next. Laying up for ourselves treasures in heaven still requires obtaining and having treasures in this world that we can lay up.

And of course, it takes a job or a business or investments to make money. It always has and always will. As the saying goes money does not grow on trees. 

If you are following the series "The Chosen" note how it illustrates the necessity of making money to support Jesus and His disciples. Zebedee, the father of the disciples James and John started an olive oil business just for this reason.

Money in itself is also neither good nor bad no more than any resource or gift God gives us. How and why we make it and use it determines this.

So what are the key principles to advancing God's kingdom through business/work and money?

We find 3 in 2 Cor 9:6-11

"The point is this: 

(principle ¹) - whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows bountifully will also reap bountifully." 

(principle ²) - "Each one must give (not only our money but our time, energy, talents, and the necessary resources to generate more money) as he has decided in his heart" (he must decide beforehand how much he's willing to give/give up/sacrifice before he starts sowing and watering), 

(principle ³) - "not reluctantly (unwillingly) or under compulsion (forced), for God loves a cheerful giver..." (whatever you do, do it out of love - cheerfully - for God and your fellow man...Not to win the acceptance or praise of others).

These 3 principles above can be summarized as follows:

1. Great results ⁴require great effort and great effort for God's honor always produces great results now and in eternity. This is foundational to the overall principle of sowing and reaping.

2. Decide beforehand that you are willing to do ²whatever it takes to accomplish the task/mission God has given you. Be deliberate, not haphazard, in your effort and approach. We must approach every worthwhile, God given endeavor with a  "do-or-die" attitude if we are to obtain whatever God calls us to. Just because God calls you to a task does not mean it will be easy or not require great effort. 

Nothing worth pursuing will be easy. We are told we will encounter thorns and thistles in our labor. Don't be surprised by roadblocks or setbacks, expect them. Resistance is not necessarily an indication God is not in a certain endeavor i.e. that He disapproves of it because of set backs or challenges. It may simply be that in this world we will have tribulation. All endeavors worth pursuing require great effort. 

3. To go about any endeavor willingly and cheerfully we must be moved by love for God and others vs. the approval of others or merely personal gain.

Verse 8 goes on to say,

"And God is able to make ³all grace abound to you so that having all sufficiency in all things at all times, you may abound in every good work."

This verse is not necessarily talking about the outcome but the strength necessary to pursue the task God has put before us i.e. strength needed to complete the task comes from God, not us.  

It is also worth noting that the sufficiency of grace is also mentioned when Paul asked God to remove a thorn in his flesh i.e. grace is how God empowers us whether that involves enduring a thorn in the flesh or accomplishing the work He has given us to do. Grace is required for both.

Work or good deeds can take many forms. One of those is generating extra resources i.e. money (profits) to put towards another endeavor that honors God. But we must also never forget it is God who works in us both the will and desire to do so.

"...it is God who works in you both the will and do of his good pleasure..." Phil 2:12

10 "He who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will supply and multiply your seed for sowing and increase the harvest of your righteousness. You will be enriched in every way to be generous in every way, which through us will produce thanksgiving to God."
2 Cor 9:6‭-‬8‭, ‬10‭-‬11 ESV

"... He who supplies seed ..."  He not only empowers us to sow and water but provides the seed to sow.

"...You will be enriched in every way to be generous in every way..."

I once heard a Christian entrepreneur and millionaire say it this way. The world looks at money and says, "get all you can so you can keep all you can, then sit on the can, and protect your can. Don't let anyone get into your can." God however says, "get all you can so you can give all you can." Both focus on acquiring and achieving as much as possible but for totally different ends.  

God blesses us not so we can indulge in those blessings for our personal consumption only but primarily so we'll have more to bless others with. This gives us additional resources to love our neighbor as we love ourselves, thereby advancing God's Kingdom and purposes on earth i.e. "your will be done on earth as it is in Heaven." The more we can obtain in this life the more resources and opportunity we have to love others in ways we would not have without them. Loving our neighbors is no less than living out the second-greatest commandment. It is what God calls us to do.

"...will produce thanksgiving to God..." 

Our diligent faithfulness to the ventures or tasks God has given and entrusted to us (i.e. our job, work, investments, or business and the gifts and abilities to perform them) will point others to God either by doing things cheerfully with excellence but also by acquiring extra resources to support the advancement of His kingdom through blessing others physically i.e. materially or financially. This ultimately leads to God's honor and praise.

This passage suggests our work is a primary means by which we advance the gospel of God's kingdom, thereby bringing glory to God and joy in God by others, resulting in our own joy.

Conclusions and application

Clearly, 2 Cor 9:6-11 indicates there is a direct correlation between sowing and reaping. The more we sow the more we reap...the less we sow the less we reap. It's not just common sense but ⁴a principle of life and nature. 

Sowing and repeating isn't just about negative consequences for sowing bad seed but also a great harvest for sowing good seed. The more the better.

To say it a different way, to see more results you must do more, pray more, give more effort, time, resources, etc. Though God in his grace and mercy may and sometimes does intervene directly to address needs despite our efforts, normally he works with, in, through, and by them. He engages us, His kids, to carry out His purposes on earth as He does in heaven. Paul himself continued utilizing his tent-making skills even when planting churches.

Related passages:

2 Corinthians 3:5

5  "What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? 

They are servants through whom you believed, as the Lord has assigned to each his role. 6  I planted the seed (of truth) and Apollos watered it, but God made it grow." - 1 Cor 3:5-6

Even though God must grow or "give the increase" to our efforts - he does so according to our sowing and watering. Something (seed) must be planted and watered by ²us for it to be multiplied by God. (We will look at what "it" is further into the passage).

Sowing and reaping applies to not only the amount we sow but also the kind of seed (gifts) we are given to contribute to the harvest. Paul's planting was different than Apollos watering. Both were needed and used to bring about a harvest. Whatever gift and task God has given, each is unique to us. It is that gift we should use, not something we don't have. To say it another way, don't try to be someone or something you aren't created or called to be i.e. someone God has not gifted you to be.

A story goes that one day a farmer who had recently become a believer was out plowing in the field when he saw the letters "PC" in the clouds. He thought this must surely mean God was calling him to preach Christ (PC). After a year in seminary, he found himself struggling financially, with grades and generally struggling to keep up with the class load. He went to the dean of students to discuss this and after a few minutes the dean said, "I think God was telling you to plant corn (PC)." The moral of the story? If God has called you to be a significant financial means of supporting the church, He will also gift you in business or with investments to make a significant amount of money. 

And as we prove ourselves trustworthy by being faithful to what God has already given, He gives us more.

7 "So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow..." 1 Cor 3:7

...is anything... He's not saying we are nothing or have no role in the process but that we are not ultimately the reason for the results, God is. When done well, God will praise and reward us. The following context supports this.

"Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim that anything comes from us, but our competence comes from God." 2 Cor 3:5

God and I working together.

"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, (you) work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." - Phil 2:12‭-‬13 ESV

How do we and God work to accomplish things at the same time? It is not a "both/and" relationship but an "in/through" one. It is God who gives us the desire, will, strength, and ability to work the work and it is our arms, legs, minds, etc (i.e. us) being empowered. He provides the strength but we are still the ones doing the sweating, not God.

Col 1:29
"For this I toil, ⁶struggling with all his energy that he powerfully works within me."

...struggling... God is the one empowering us but this does not exclude our sweat, persistence, and perseverance. He enables us to sweat and persist by and through His grace and love to us and out to others. To use an analogy we are the sale boat but He is the wind.

Even though 2 Cor 9 is talking about people giving financial/ material resources; in principle, it would hold true in giving any resources, be that time, energy, abilities, material possessions money, etc. Money is only the fruit of using our other gifts/resources to acquire it. 

Financial and material resources come through hard work. Sharing the good news is not by our words only. In fact, our good and excellent deeds give greater credibility to our words. An old saying is I don't care about what you know (and say) until I know that you care. A primary way we show care is by blessing others with our time, and attention and that is often with or through the material blessings God has given us.

"And God is able to make ³all grace abound to you so that (you) having all sufficiency in all things at all times, you may abound in every good work." - 2 Cor 9:‬8

It is not a question of whether work - a job, investment, or business - can be a means of ministry but whether it is a good effort we are engaged in i e. It's not what we do that is most important by why we do it. What determines a good work versus a bad work is not just what we do but the goal of our efforts i.e. are we seeking to advance our purposes or God's. If God's, then whatever we do, do it with everything we've got for His glory.

i.e. ...⁶struggling with all his energy that he powerfully works within me." Col 1:29

The other implication is this takes sacrifice. We have to give up something we could use elsewhere - such as money or time - wherever God directs us to get a return (increase) on whatever God has called us to. We should know this going in and decide how much we're willing to give up in order to gain the outcome we hope for and believe God desires and has called us to.

The good news is if and when we are giving (working, sacrificing) for the right reason - i.e. using all the resources He's given us to advance His kingdom for His glory, not ours - He will not only bless those efforts (and multiply our resources to do even more to honor Him and bless others) but also empower us to do what we have been given to do and are committed to doing. This is His promise, no ifs, ands, or butts. 

When we do all things (especially our business or job) for God's honor out of love for others we can do it without reservation or doubt we are doing a good thing.

We also must be clear that we do not sow and water in and by our own strength. 

And when we experience good results, it is only because of His hand of blessing i.e. for this to happen, we must be and are empowered by God's Spirit/Love i.e. ultimately the results are because of Him; because of the strength and energy He gives us to complete the task and Him clearing the path or opening doors to bring it about.

God is engaged in every part of the process. He provides the seed. His Spirit is the power that gives us the will to work and drives us within, as well as multiplies our efforts without.

And we are engaged in every part of the process. It is ⁴our gifts, abilities, resources, efforts, hands, feet, bodies, and minds that are required in the sowing and watering and also our prayers that are necessary in asking God to give the increase. We are fully engaged in every phase.

Every endeavor (work) God gives us i.e. calls us to, we are engaged in is a partnership with God for His glory as well as our joy. This results in the thanks of others which also brings joy and honor to God and to us.

For a discussion on the fallacy of the health and wealth gospel, click here.

For a discussion on giving as we have received, click here.

For a discussion on the importance of discipline and diligence, click here

For a discussion on the importance of excellence, click here.

For a discussion on legitimate vs illegitimate business, click here 

For a discussion on resting in God, click here

For a discussion on whether competition is good or bad, click here

For a further discussion on being diligent, click here

For a discussion on what is more important, great effort or great faith, click here

For a discussion of what exactly is money/currency click here.

For a discussion on how faith is hard work, click here.

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¹Is sharing the good news limited exclusively to speaking about what Christ did for us? No. When we understand the gospel, it permeates, shapes, and drives every aspect of our lives and actions as well as our words. It entails not only what we do but why we do it. This includes our regular day-to-day job, business, or any venture and how we go about them.

²Exerting whatever effort is required - sowing and watering - takes time and effort; time away from other things that may be more immediately gratifying. 

Sacrifice and self-denial do not necessarily involve a huge loss but simply setting aside legitimate but inferior desires for more productive God-honoring goals e.g. Instead of checking your email or the latest news, it may be more fruitful to spend some time reaching out to someone (family, friend, business partner) that could use some of God's love and attention - through you.

³grace -  The fuel that energizes our abounding is God's love - which is ours only by grace, not because of our faithfulness (obedience) or productivity.  Faithfulness does not cause grace but is the means by which grace is released. Our experience of God's love is tied to our faithfulness. 

⁴This principle is so certain that even if we sow for the wrong reason - i.e. for our honor and gain not God's - if done diligently and without giving up we will eventually get results. It is how things are designed to operate regardless of our motives. However, when done for God's honor, we are promised God's support and His wind (breath/Spirit) at our backs. Otherwise it could - and likely will - eventually result in burnout. 

⁵By saying these are ours, we must recognize and acknowledge all we are and have is given, loaned to us, and sustained by God to advance his purposes. Nothing that is, would be if not for God, including all the gifts we are given and skills we acquire.

Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. And let us not grow weary of doing good (not just bad), for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up. So then, as we have opportunity, let us do good to everyone, and especially to those who are of the household of faith. - Gal 6:7‭-‬10 

⁶Col 1:29 

For this I toil, struggling with all his energy that he powerfully works within me.

To or for-

Εἰς (Eis)
Preposition
Strong's 1519: A primary preposition; to or into, of place, time, or purpose; also in adverbial phrases.

this end-

ὃ (ho)
Personal / Relative Pronoun - Accusative Neuter Singular
Strong's 3739: Who, which, what, that.

I labor,-

κοπιῶ (kopiō)
Verb - Present Indicative Active - 1st Person Singular
Strong's 2872: From a derivative of kopos; to feel fatigue; by implication, to work hard.

striving-

ἀγωνιζόμενος (agōnizomenos)
Verb - Present Participle Middle or Passive - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's 75: From agon; to struggle, literally, figuratively, or genitive case.

with all-

κατὰ (kata)
Preposition
Strong's 2596: A primary particle; down, in varied relations (genitive, dative or accusative) with which it is joined).

His-

αὐτοῦ (autou)
Personal / Possessive Pronoun - Genitive Masculine 3rd Person Singular
Strong's 846: He, she, it, they, them, same. From the particle au; the reflexive pronoun self, used of the third person, and of the other persons

energy-

ἐνέργειαν (energeian)
Noun - Accusative Feminine Singular
Strong's 1753: Working, action, productive work, activity; in the NT, confined to superhuman activity. From energes; efficiency.

working-

ἐνεργουμένην (energoumenēn)
Verb - Present Participle Middle - Accusative Feminine Singular
Strong's 1754: From energes; to be active, efficient.

powerfully-

δυνάμει (dynamei)
Noun - Dative Feminine Singular
Strong's 1411: From dunamai; force; specially, miraculous power.

within-

ἐν (en)
Preposition
Strong's 1722: In, on, among. A primary preposition denoting position, and instrumentality, i.e. A relation of rest; 'in, ' at, on, by, etc.

me-

ἐμοὶ (emoi)
Personal / Possessive Pronoun - Dative 1st Person Singular
Strong's 1473: I, the first-person pronoun. A primary pronoun of the first person I.

A suggested prayer 

What to begin and close each day of work if you are building a business.

God bring to mind, lead, and bring me to the people you wish me to work (or build my business) with and minister to. 

Also enable me to work in a way that most honors you i.e. with faith, focus, diligence, energy, strength, and love to make whatever ²sacrifice is necessary to reach (serve) the maximum number of people for you, with the potential you've given me so that I might richly bless (love) others for your glory and praise and my happiness.

Show yourself strong on my behalf so that I may bring you greater honor i.e. more fully reveal and display your goodness - i.e. make you look good, not me.

God, only you can increase and multiply the fruit of my efforts... (efforts empowered by You, but mine just the same). I ask you to do so for the honor of your Son. So be it... Amen!

 

 

 

rest

What does it mean to "rest" in God? Is there only one meaning?

I would suggest the Bible teaches there is an initial rest and an ongoing rest. 

After we have come into God's Kingdom and into our initial rest from His rightful judgment and condemnation, we are called to enter into and partake in an ongoing rest (contentment). 

The rest of this article will address ongoing rest. 

This occurs when we live according to two key truths.

1. We thank God for everything - especially the "bad" things - whether we understand why they are happening or not.

2. We faithfully (though not perfectly, necessarily) seek to do everything God calls us to do, whether we like it or not.

The 1st (i.e. hard circumstances) we do not control and must accept (receive) ¹passively, and the 2nd we do "control" and must pursue actively. 

Both require a choice we make by faith, and in this sense, both are active i.e. we choose - "control" - how we respond and how our circumstances affect us, not the circumstances. 

But neither can happen without God's strengthening/ empowering us (i.e. we can't do it in our own strength). But by His strength, which only comes through deeper trust in Him. 

We must come to a place where we fully recognize He is trustworthy in both what he allows (#1 above) and in what he calls us to (#2 above), and respond accordingly i.e. in and by faith. 

This is our choice alone and determines how these circumstances influence and shape us.

The theological underpinnings needed to live this way are infinitely deep, because they are grounded in our trust in the infinite love, power, faithfulness, care, and wisdom of God i.e. they must go as deep as God is vast, and as much as our faith allows us to embrace Him as being exactly who He is and claims to be.

To give assent to and ²faithfully carry or live these out, we must recognize (believe) God ³is always good, all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-loving at all times and in all things. 

If you doubt these things about God concerning you and difficult circumstances, you will not be in a posture of humility and dependence needed to enter His rest. You will remain - abide if you will - in a state of agitation i.e. unrest, anxiety, or fear.

Resting in God is the essence of the now-popular saying, "God is good all the time, and all the time God is good."

Does this mean we will never struggle with believing these things?

Christ himself - the founder and perfector of our faith - wrestled with this in the garden of Gethsemane. He wrestled with both obedience (active) and acceptance (passive) of what God was about to allow him to go through. 

What settled it for him was one very simple decision, "...not my will but yours be done." He came to the place of complete surrender and trust. Once he did, his struggle was over. He was at peace i.e. resting in his trust in the Father, regardless of what He was about to and did go through.

This is why he was able to calmly say to his disciples, "See, the hour is at hand, and the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. Rise, let us be going; see, my betrayer, is at hand.” Matt 26:45b-46. 

He stared pain straight in the face and, out of his total trust in His Father's love, wisdom, and power, was able to embrace the pain, the humbling, and the shame he was about to go through during His crucifixion. From this point forward, he set his eyes on the cross and never looked back. 

Christ was empowered to make this decision because he believed (trusted) his Father was all-knowing, all-wise, all-powerful, and all-loving at that moment in that given circumstance. 

We, too, are called to this and can carry it out by the same strength we receive through this same trust in the Father. When we do, we too will calmly (peacefully) and deliberately move forward in life, no matter what is in front of us. 

For a discussion on how God uses evil for good click here.

For a further discussion on why God allows suffering and evil click here.

______________________________

¹Passively only in the sense that we don't necessarily have to or can do anything regarding challenging circumstances (of course, if we can, we should take action, but sometimes nothing we do can change things). However, we are never to be passive in terms of faith. Our faith must be actively and willfully engaged to enter and remain in an ongoing state of rest - peace. 

Both being thankful for challenges and engaging others in sacrificial love require faith (in the same way it did for Christ), so in this sense, everything involves active engagement and is not passive. 

²Some have suggested that if you break the word faithful down, it simply means full of faith i.e. faith full. To be faithful (obedient) no matter what we encounter, we must be full of faith.

³To acknowledge these things about God is not easy (it wasn't for Christ either), especially when staring into the face of great evil, struggle, and personal pain. 

What would you say is the biggest thing God is after in the lives of his children? 

Is it not our experiencing a closer relationship with Him?

and

The most important element of any relationship is trust

and

That which requires our greatest trust is suffering, pain, and challenges. We must embrace these and thank God for them. Without faith/trust this isn't possible.

How? The "good" God works in and through all the things we go through - for those of us who love Him (Rom 8:28) - is to make us like His Son (Rom 8:29). In doing so, we experience the same level of glorious and blissful communion with the Father that the Son did (and does). This is the ultimate good end God is working toward, for us, through our struggles. Not necessarily improved circumstances. This has nothing to do with improved circumstances (though it could and sometimes does lead to them, just not automatically). 

What better end is there than to experience God in all his love and glory to the greatest extent possible? 

And what better means is there to participate in this, other than having the same faith (and faithfulness) Christ had? 

And what faith do we have if not a tested faith? 

And what tests our faith most - and Christ's - if not pain and suffering?