God...independent because he's interdependent?

Can we say that the reason God is independent is that he is interdependent? In the ultimate sense we cannot say that God needs himself since he already has himself i.e. can you need what you already fully possess?

However, when God embraced the creation through his incarnation and personally participated in its pain, suffering and loss as the flesh and blood Son of man, in some sense, he experienced some kind of loss/separation within the triune being of God i.e. what Christ formally fully had, ¹he set aside for a time, experiencing ²"loss" of what he formally fully ³possessed throughout eternity past? 

Joh 17:5  And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

(AMP)  And now, Father, glorify Me along with Yourself and restore Me to such majesty and honor in Your presence as I had with You before the world existed.

The above passage indicates during the incarnation, Christ was not participating in the full glory he had experienced from all eternity past - though this ultimately was restored. 

For a discussion on whether God "needs" us click here. 

For a further discussion of the incarnation click here. 
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Footnotes:

¹Philippians 2 speaks of Christ setting aside something of his eternal attributes. Even today it appears Christ still exists in a localized physical (but glorified) body. This is a change from his previous experience of total omnipresence - though we could argue that some  theophanies in the OT were Christ appearing as a man for short periods of time.

This raises the question of whether "God ever changes." God never changes in the essence of his being - He is same yesterday, today and forever - but is it possible he can change in the economy of his actions? The incarnation, life, death, and resurrection seem to indicate so. Though we may not be dogmatic on this or fully comprehend it, or do we need to necessarily, this passage indicates something unique occurred along this line.

²I put "loss" in quotes because ultimately this may have been gain and not loss in a similar way we gain a greater and fuller appreciation of God's unfettered presence through our loss of it i.e. as the saying goes, absence makes the heart grow fonder. Is this what it means for God to have the knowledge of good and evil, i.e. good in contrast to evil? Though Christ's suffering of evil occurred at a point in history, the knowledge of this was ever-present with God since God knows all things and is not bound to time. We are told at the outset, this was a quality of God's character before man's rebellion and the allure of gaining this quality was how humanity was enticed away from God.  

³i.e. omnipresence at a minimum? Though he initially set aside far more than this - e.g. he also set aside total omnipotence and omniscience during the incarnation, to name two of His other major attributes.

Christ's participation in the incarnation was not only for us but for himself - and the Godhead through him. By experiencing a self-imposed emptying (loss) he became experientially (more fully?) aware of His dependence on the Father in a way he hadn't before, gaining first-hand experience and a greater appreciation of what he had in the fellowship/ communion/union with the Father by and through the Spirit. Like us, Christ gained an appreciation for the good he formally had, i.e. his relationship with His Father, by losing something of it for a time.  This may be the reason for the joy He experienced in anticipation of returning to the Father. 

"...looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God."

Heb 12:2 ESV

Did God participate in and experience the evil of suffering for the same reason he allows us to; to create a greater appreciation for the presence of the Father by experiencing his absence?



In the truest and most important sense, there is no "before" in God i.e. God IS, so there is no past, present, or future for Him; everything is present to God. This may explain why it says God knew good and evil prior to the rebellion of Adam in the garden. The experience of the incarnation, along with all its suffering, was in one sense present tense for God while in another sense carried and acted out in time by the incarnate of Christ (but by choice, not necessity i.e. there was nothing lacking in God that required God to act in time, e.g. to create. God didn't create to fulfill something lacking in himself).

Why explore things that are only inferred in scripture and not stated explicitly? Because some explicit statements and teachings in scripture appear to contradict other explicit statements. For example, there is no evil in God yet God knows good and evil. Christ is fully man yet fully God. God is one in essence yet three distinct persons. What do we do with these paradoxes and seeming contradictions? We should not ignore them because we can not fully make sense of them but attempt to see how they might work and fit together and what, if any, benefit can be gained in doing so. If it helps us to better know and honor God it is a worthy pursuit, is it not?

Some may feel this inquiry is fruitless. I would suggest the opposite. 

If you wish to further explore the value of paradox, click here.

If you wish to further explore God using evil for good, click here. 

knowing God...two ways...now and then

There is knowing God 

·        by faith 

       and 

·        by union

Both involve seeing God; one at a distance and one face-to-face.

We experience the former now, through a mirror dimly, and will experience the latter in eternity when we are in the unobstructed, glorious, and perfect presence of God with nothing between us and him. We will literally be face-to-face.

Hope of His presence 

The anticipation of being perfectly united with God and fully in His presence is our hope and a significant part of what drives our pursuit of God (I John 3:2-3). It is the anticipation — ¹sure hope — of the bliss of experiencing Him in all His glory that moves us to faithfulness. This is where we, for the first time, will experience unobstructed and uninterrupted fullness of life in him along with our fullest glory, i.e. our greatest fulfillment-joy-value-purpose and meaning. It is in this anticipated joy our hope is anchored, not unlike the anticipated joy Christ experienced. 

Heb 12:2 ...looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

 One day we too will be "²seated" with God - i.e. resting perfectly in His presence. 

Why is it we will be like him when we see him as he is? (I John 3:2-3) Why will looking into the face of Jesus be so transforming? Because it is in someone's face and especially the eyes we see love expressed most directly, clearly, and personally. Everything we have been told about Christ we will realize perfectly in an instant when we look into His eyes. 

In summary and recap

There is knowledge of God by faith and by union.

We now live for God and see him by faith through a mirror dimly so our view-knowledge of God is incomplete-imperfect. It is "in part" because we could not withstand a full view of Him in our present unglorified state.

In eternity our sight will expand into actual union and firsthand experience, where we will literally and physically be with God in his glorious presence. Our experience of God's presence will be actual and not by faith as it is now.

Love is common in both our present and future state and the means of our transformation. It transforms us now by faith and will transform us in and throughout eternity by direct experience and participation in the complete and immediate presence of the God of nonstop love. What a glorious day that will be!

For more on experiencing our greatest glory, click here. 

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¹It is hope only in the sense that we do not yet possess it. It is sure because God is true.

²Though not at His immediate right hand. That is reserved only for Christ. This is also not saying we will be inactive, i.e. sitting still - but addresses being fully received and acknowledged as being worthy of being in His presence. 

becoming who we are in Christ

Growth for a believer (someone who has acknowledged their need for Christ's offer of salvation and received it) is becoming more of who we already are in God's eyes. It is coming to the place that our experience of God's perfect, infinite love increasingly matches - i.e. becomes the same as - the actual love he has for us. 

Our experience of His love now is based primarily on our trust in that love - "the just shall live by faith" - not sight.

As a child of God, we are already fully loved, yet we rarely sense being fully loved. In Christ, God is fully accessible and present, yet we often don't fully sense his presence.

Why is this? 

We don't fully believe or grasp our glorious status as his perfectly beloved child. Unbelief is an internal (heart) problem. 

Unbelief - distrust - was the essence of our rebellion in the Garden of Eden and also of our present brokenness. This will not be fully remedied - our experience will not match our status - until we are glorified and face-to-face with Christ. At that time faith will no longer be central to our relationship, for ¹love will be right in front of us in Christ - i.e. by sight... face to face. 

For now, not only are we still broken - our internal problem - but we live in a broken world full of pain and suffering - our external problem. This includes the brokenness of others resulting in offenses coming to us but also the physical world itself being in bondage and decay. 

One day we will be entirely free of both internal and external bondage... but not yet. No matter how close we draw near to God now, troubles will be part of our experience until we and all creation are delivered from bondage and fully restored. That is an external issue and the reality of our existence in a broken world that is in the bondage to decay. 

As broken image-bearers of God, we attempt to be our own god - our internal problem - seeking to control other persons or things to derive from them a sense of meaning, purpose, and love. We do not look to the one and only true God in whom alone these are found and freely offered. 

This lack of trust - that we already have all of this in Christ - hinders us from fully experiencing the love of God fully secured for us by Christ.

The solution? 

Know who God truly is as the all-loving, beautiful, and good God, the source of life, love, and all things. The Father sending Christ is our greatest proof.

Knowing who you truly are as a bearer of God's image, designed for infinite love, that can only be truly satisfied in a completely unfettered and unobstructed relationship with your Creator. Knowing both of these things is our hope and God's promise in Christ.

Understand and grasp what Christ has done for you; that he has removed the condemnation for your distrust of His Father by bearing the consequences of that distrust himself and has also assigned-credited all Christ's good deeds (perfect trust - obedience) to your account. Now, in Christ, you are fully received by the Father in the same way and extent Christ is - as his beloved, precious, and perfect child.  

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¹It is not that love is not vital now or even central, but until we are in eternity our experience of God's love being completely ours - more than our current  experience seems to indicate - is based on faith. We are told we are loved based on what God did in sending Jesus - a past event. Sometimes we see evidence of it in our current circumstances or feel that love within, but that feeling is not constant. When we look face-to-face into the eyes of love - Jesus' eyes - it will be. Then we will fully be like him for we will see him with our own ²eyes as he is, i.e. perfectly loving. 

²Vs the "eyes of faith."

Are we dead to sin?

"For one who has died has been ¹set free from sin." Romans 6:7

 

The above is an absolute statement, not a conditional one i.e. it doesn't say you will be set free if you take additional action... it says you have been set free! This is a past completed action done for and to you, not by you. We didn't set ourselves free, someone else did. And not only so, but this freedom is so complete and absolute it's described as death. It doesn't get any more final than that.

So in what sense have we been set free? First, we will look at how we have not been set free.

What we are not yet free from is our inclination to distrust God and our passion to go our ²own way. If so, there wouldn't be verse 12.

"Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions." Romans 6:12

Who is Paul talking to? Nonbelievers? No, believers! This verse implies the passion to sin is still present in God’s children and still needs addressing, after he described us as dead to sin in vs 4, otherwise why the exhortation to not let sin reign? The allure of being our own god and going our own way - sin - still exists, even for a child of God.

This is ironically good news. How? We shouldn't be shocked (or devastated) when this passion within rears its ugly head. Sin - i.e. rebellious distrust of God - is still a struggle for all God’s children. 

This exhortation tells us God recognizes this passion still exists, yet He no longer holds our sin against us.  Exhorting us to not let sin reign indicates that if we are in Christ, God desires to work with us and meet us where we are, fully embracing us in our ongoing struggle with sin - unbelief.

So what exactly are we set free from and dead to if not our passion to sin? 

We are dead to and free from sins legal claim and right to condemn us, which resulted in our rejection, and eternal separation from God – a separation rightly due us for our distrust of God - i.e. for not acknowledging God for who He is as trustworthy...which is the root of all sinful behavior.

And the reason we have been set free from this just condemnation is so we might be set free (Romans 6:4, 7:4, 8:4) from our ³passion to distrust God i.e. in light of being set free from sins condemnation we should “let not sin therefore reign...” 

Fully and clearly understanding our legal status is vital to our day-to-day faithfulness. It is the foundation and fountain out of which all faithfulness/obedience springs.

"We were buried therefore with him (Christ) by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. Romans" 6:4. 

Another way to say this is Christ set us free legally, so we might be set free practically i.e. our legal freedom from the condemnation of sin and the resulting rejection by God, when clearly understood, is what diffuses our passion to sin and frees us from it.

Christ bore the judgment of sin and removed its penalty forever–not only from us but from Himself. He will not die again because there is nothing left to die for, as indicated when Christ shouted out, "it is finished." His death covered all our sins forever...full stop! Not just the ones we did, but the ones we do and are yet to do. 

The just condemnation of our sin was perfectly and completely satisfied by Christ and removed from us, placed on him, killing him – or rather, he submitted willingly to this for us. 

His resurrection is evidence of God’s approval of the total transfer of all our sin - past, present, and future - to Him and His total righteousness to us. As a result, we are now "dead to sin" i.e. it's legal claim on us no longer exists.

Why? ... in order that...we too might walk in newness of life… Rom 6:4b

The reason we are set free from the just condemnation we deserve is so we will live in a different or new way; no longer the way we used to live i.e. no longer contrary to God’s design and will for us and no longer under His judgment; no longer needing or attempting to gain God's love and acceptance through our own deeds. We are now dead to everything about that old way - all of it!  To use the example Paul uses to show the absolute completeness of what Christ did, we are no longer in Adam (who rebelled against God) but in Christ who faithfully obeyed God.

Being freed from the condemnation, judgment, and rejection of God due us is the grounds on which we build our house of faithful obedience and the foundation out of which we are empowered to pursue God. The more we grasp this new freedom from condemnation and rejection and the absolute completeness of it, the ⁴freer we become in our conduct, and the more this new status of being perfectly accepted and fully loved by God wins our trust and devotion to God and empowers us to pursue Him.

For a further discussion of how unbelief is at the heart of sin, click here.

For a further discussion of our legal vs practical status click here.

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¹We are not set free from our inclination to distrust God but from the rejection by God and separation from Him that naturally and rightfully occurs because of this distrust. By our being set free from our just condemnation, our trust in God’s love is restored, stirred up, and strengthened. The more we grasp how much we have been freed, the greater our loving affections for God and the more we are stirred to pursue Him i.e. the more we are freed from our passion to pursue something other than God. Nothing else can fulfill us besides God and free us from our desires to pursue other things.

The love of God is what moves us to pursue him and the total freedom from the judgment, condemnation, and death that sin brings, is the evidence of that love. Let that sink in. The more it does, the more your passion for God increases and frees you from passions for things other than God. 

Though these two -- freedom from sins legal claim vs its practical hold -- are separate, they are also closely tied together; the latter built on and resting firmly on the former.

²an embedded sinful inclination away from God

³Passion is a strong word. We may not think of our unbelief as passionate but the idea of the word is it is a deeply embedded and tenacious distrust of God that is at the root of all disobedience.

For more discussion on the connection between unbelief, sin, and disobedience, click here.

⁴We are free, but we are not free. We are free from the condemnation and judgment of our rejection of (and by) God but not free from our inclination and passion to sin. The former is completed-done-finished, the latter is ongoing. The latter decreases to the extent we grasp and believe the former. The effect of this good news - the gospel - is ongoing, constant and increasing. It is only left to us to believe it. 

Do you believe? How much? The more you do, the freer you become from your passion to sin.