Being in awe...we are incurably religious

What is awe? Why do we all experience it and seek it? When do we experience it most? 

Let's take a closer look.

We are like God; in his image and were created to participate in and experience God's majesty, ¹glory, beauty, greatness, etc. To do so, there had to be a corresponding quality within us - i.e. the capacity to behold and experience ¹glory - that would enable us to partake of and enjoy his infinite worth, majesty, i.e. His ¹glory.

This is why we are so drawn to, fascinated by, and in awe of things that are bigger, greater, or more powerful than us. 

Such as a vast mountain range or a brilliant sunset, a raging volcano, a powerful storm, or a magnificent waterfall. The common word we use when experiencing these things is "awesome." 

We are drawn also to things that are simply beautiful, creative, and excellent. The more so, the stronger the pull and drawn to them.

But Why?

Our sense of worth is tied directly to our ability to be in awe of and enjoy God's beauty, excellence, greatness, power, and worth...in a word His glory. In short, we are created to worship - to acknowledge and praise that which is of great value-worth; the greatest and most worthy being the Creator of ²all things.

This is so much a part of our makeup that if we do not acknowledge God, we turn our desire and need to praise toward other persons or things such as celebrities or a successful sports

team or a highly successful athlete, a great (effective) leader, a vast array of stars, anything beautiful such as a beautiful woman, flowers, colorful birds or other majestic creatures, as well as nature in general...and we could go on. All of these display and express qualities within God Himself who created all these things. They are glorious because they display something of the glory of their Creator who is all glorious.

If our worship and praise are not directed to God it will be directed somewhere else. We are incurably religious and must worship (ascribe worth or value to) something or someone. We are created to praise and worship that which is greatest, most beautiful, and glorious.

Why are we irresistibly ³drawn to these things? Because they resonate with our desire for beauty and express something about God's beauty and creativity. But that is only because we are like Him, in his image, with the capacity to enjoy these things. We experience our greatest worth when we partake of His.

We experience awe very early in life. It is not something we are taught. Contrary to what the atheist says, we did not create God, God created us with the desire - and capacity - to enjoy Him who is awesome. 

We also enjoy receiving praise because we were designed (as God's image bearers) for praise; not only to praise (God or others) but to be praised (valued, feel significant). 

We are like little gods but to an infinitely lesser degree than our infinite, all-wise and powerful Creator; but like Him nevertheless. We are creatures who, like God, can create from things God has made and given us, though on a far lesser scale. We are not the Almighty Creator who can simply speak things into existence. 

There is only one eternal and infinite God. We are not Him. He alone is infinite.

God is most praiseworthy of all beings and we are like him but to an infinitely lesser degree, yet still like him nevertheless.

To be like God is to desire, to be able to enjoy, and to be in awe of God.

For a discussion on the need and desire for excellence click here.

For a discussion on our desire for beauty click here, here and here.

For a discussion on how we are created for glory click here.

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¹What would be the equivalent to the word glory today? If you look at the word in the original languages of the Bible (OT-Hebrew and NT-Greek), it gives us an interesting picture. 

Glory

Hebrew 

H3519   כּבד    כּבוד        kâbôd  kâbôd   kaw-bode', kaw-bode'

Definition:

From H3513; properly weight; but only figuratively in a good sense, splendor or copiousness: - glorious (-ly), glory, honour (-able).

Greek 

G1392  δοξάζω  doxazō

Thayer Greek 

Definition:

1) to think, suppose, be of opinion

2) to praise, extol, magnify, celebrate

3) to honour, do honour to, hold in honour

4) to make glorious, adorn with lustre, clothe with splendour

4a) to impart glory to something, render it excellent

4b) to make renowned, render illustrious

4b1) to cause the dignity and worth of some person or thing to become manifest and acknowledged

From G1391

From the base of G1380  δοκέω

dokeō; from δόκος dokos (opinion); to have an opinion, to seem: - deem (1), expect (1), has a mind (1), inclined (1), recognized (1), regarded (1), reputation (3), reputed (1), seem (3), seemed best (1), seemed fitting (1), seemed good (4), seems (3), suppose (5), supposed (2), supposes (1), supposing (4), think (18), thinking (1), thinks (6), thought (4).

At first, it is not apparent how glory, as defined in the Old and New Testament, are connected. They seem to be very different. Is there a connection? If so, what is it?

During the Old Testament times, Israel was predominately agricultural, so the more weighty something was (or the greater the number, such as 1000 camels verses 100) the more valuable like 10 bushels are heavier and therefore of greater value than one bushel or several talents of gold weighed more than one. The greater or more "copious" the amount, the heavier its weight and the greater its value. 

To show forth or manifest the dignity and worth of something in the NT was to put it on display - show it off, if you will - such as shining a light on a copious pile of gold coins. This would reveal the greatness of its value. Or as the definition indicates "...to cause the dignity and worth of some person or thing to become manifest and acknowledged..."

Inherent in both these definitions is the central idea of great value or worth. By the simple fact that we are in God's image and therefore have the capacity to partake of, experience and display God's great worth/glory, makes us significant and of great worth. Nothing else in all creation - including angels -  can partake of God like we can. We can behold his infinite worth and display it to others unlike anything else. This is the essence of worship i.e. worth-ship...the state of being valuable, important etc. In displaying His great worth we bring Him greater honor but also experience our greatest worth and glory i.e. purpose and meaning in doing so.

²those very things we experience awe in when we encounter them. If temporary created things cause us to feel awe, how much more so their infinite Creator?!

³And we are also able to express these qualities in various ways.

What is an evil heart?

When we consider evil we usually think in terms of horrendous acts such as torture, sexual abuse or trafficking, genocide, and the like. But what about an evil heart? Is this something different than evil actions? It is - though these are connected - but unlike evil acts, an evil heart is far more common than we may think. 

This involves the why of our actions i.e. what is our motive for acting? Are we acting for the

¹glory of God or glory of self i.e. to advance God's rule (kingdom) or ²our own? We either do one or the other. These are opposite as well as opposed to each other. There is no middle ground. There can't be since God's glory and ours are ³contrary to each other.

One of these two is the ultimate end we seek in every action - from the most grand of actions to the least significant - e.g. eating and drinking. 

What is at the heart of this difference and what enables us to live for God's glory?

We must behold God's glory (His infinite worth, importance, significance etc.) and partake of it to display it. If we do not, we will not experience it or be able to extend it to others. We are left to act only for inferior self-glory (self-exaltation), for we must experience ¹glory ⁴one way or the other; ⁵legitimately or illegitimately.

Because we are created to know and partake in God - who is all glorious (most significant, important, and valuable) - but are absent this due to our rebellious distrust of God, we must experience ¹glory in some other way to function (even if inferior to the way we were designed to - i.e. in, by, and through God). To use an analogy, drinking from a toilet is better than dying of thirst...(at least initially, for we could likely die from disease if we continued doing so). Like we must have food, air, and water, we must also know we have value-significance (glory) to exist much less function well - if not physically, at least spiritually and emotionally. 

If our experience of glory comes from the Source of glory - i.e. God - we function optimally and are most fulfilled and effective, as we were designed to be. If our sense of glory (worth) is ⁶self generated or achieved, we operate contrary to our design, break down, and eventually crash and burn at all levels, i.e. spiritually, emotionally, and physically. If we are not receivers of God's glory (as we're designed to be) we become only takers or grabbers of glory from somewhere other than God, the one true Source of life, love, and all things. 

To take glory is to dishonor and harm others, God first, then our fellow image bearers. For we must take from others what they also ⁷need - i.e. their sense of dignity, importance, and worth - in order to do so.

This is the essence of an evil heart. It is the strategy we all engage in when not captivated by God's glorious love and beauty.

For a further discussion on how we are created for glory click here.

Are we actually rebels against God? For a further discussion click here.

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¹Glory - value, significance, importance etc., and a sense of these. God is most glorious and the source of all glory, we are designed to partake and participate in it.

2 Pet 1:3 His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, 4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire.

Some may wonder why or how not glorifying God is evil. Good question. If God is the Creator and sustainer of all good things, to deny this and live contrary to it (as if something other than God is the source of life) is a lie that results in actions with far-reaching and harmful consequences. Actions that point to anything as the source other than God. Causing harm is the essence of evil. For a further discussion, click here.

²Some may wonder what is wrong with building our own kingdom? Stated simply, we were created for much greater, more meaningful things. Building our own kingdom does not fit who we are (we only think it is because outside of God this is all we know and the best we can do).  Though we are created to build kingdoms - grand ones at that -  but not exclusively for ourselves but for the King of kings. We are creatures in the image of God designed to participate in Him. In doing so we find our greatest sense of meaning, purpose, and joy. 

But we must choose this. God does not force us to pursue Him, He lets us choose. 

Nevertheless enjoying Him above everything else is what we are designed for and where we find our greatest joy, meaning, and purpose. We are still a major part of the equation, just not the focus of it.

³They may be opposite but they are not separate. They are connected. How? When we glorify God we experience our greatest glory. But we do not honor-glorify God for this reason - i.e. our glory is not our focus but the result of focusing on God. We do so simply because God is all glorious and deserves all praise and all our praise. It is when we discover him as all glorious, we experience our greatest glory i.e. when we humble ourselves we are exalted...to live we must die...to find our life we must lose it... etc (This is a reoccurring theme throughout scripture, sometimes referred to as the upside-down kingdom). Experiencing our greatest glory (worth) is the fruit of recognizing God's infinite worth (glory). To see His glory, we must first die to efforts to try to obtain it independent of Him. Obtaining our own glory independent of God's not only doesn't work, it is in opposition to God as well as to us.

⁴Because we were created for glory if we do not receive it from God we will seek it elsewhere. Otherwise, we give up and die.

⁵Seeking glory illegitimately is wrong for two reasons. 

1. It is contrary to our design and therefore what is best for us (i.e. it doesn't work long term). 

2. It is also contrary to who God is, who alone is all glorious (most valuable, significant, and worthy of all our affection and loyalty) and therefore, most worthy of our trust. 

To not recognize Him as He truly is dishonors Him. He alone deserves our worship (our highest regard for His infinite worth) and faithfulness.

⁶By using creation to get a sense of glory - value (both internally through the talents/abilities He's given us and externally through the natural resources all around us).

⁷except God, who is the cause and source of all dignity, worth, and greatness.

strengthening our trust through self denial

We usually think of fasting as a 24 hour or multiple-day event.

However, why can't there be many kinds of decisions/events throughout the day? Decisions to consciously, willfully, and deliberately deny ourselves something that may actually be neutral or normally OK. 

Denying ourselves food is only one form of self denial. There can also be denial of catching up on the latest news, or participating in a temporary recreational diversion such as a movie, game or sporting event, in order to use that time to pursue God more deliberately. These are also types of self-denial. Is this not the heart and intent of fasting?

Luk 9:23  And he said to all, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.

Anything that aids and increases our appetite,  trust, and dependence on God is a good thing. 

Why?

Because God is the best "thing" we can pursue, receive, partake of, and experience. By denying ourselves things we normally find comforting, we focus instead on the God of all comfort. 

Our increasing union and full restoration to God (not legally -which is already taken care of by Christ - but practically on a daily basis) is his primary aim in all things he allows and directs us to pursue. Whether that involves "good" things or "bad" (as the world defines them) such as denying ourselves what may otherwise be legitimate activities. 

This is opposite of the world's message of indulging ourselves in whatever our heart desires. Instead of our desires ruling us, God calls us to be "ruled" by His love.

Our redemption and reconciliation to God is the foundation on which this occurs. Because we are already fully restored to God legally - by Christ's efforts, not ours - we are now freed to focus on being fully in harmony with God practically in our daily lives/walk.

What aids and increases our dependence on God depends on us, our attitude, and disposition towards God. 

That attitude is strengthened through our trust in God's love for us demonstrated to us in and through Christ's work on our behalf. 

That trust is strengthened by looking to God for comfort instead of other activities and diversions.

Pursuing God through prayer, fasting, fellowship, worship, and the various other means of grace He provides (and empowers us by), are vital in realizing this. 

Whatever it is God calls us to or allows us to go through, we must trust God knows best and receive and participate in all things accordingly.

2 Cor 12:9 ...he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

Ecclesiastes 3:1-3 

1 For everything there is a season, and a time for every matter under heaven:

2 a time to be born, and a time to die;

a time to plant, and a time to pluck up what is planted;

3 a time to kill, and a time to heal;

a time to break down, and a time to build up;

1 Corinthians 10:31

So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. 

Intent is key...

For a further discussion in doing things for the glory of God click here.

 

Pain - normal or common?

Because ¹pain is such a ¹constant part of our lives (from the first time we left our ²mother's womb and cried) it feels normal i.e. it has been a common part of our life from the first moment we came into this world.

On one level we have become so acclimated to pain we even buy into the notion that death is a normal part of life e.g. it's simply part of the "circle of life" as portrayed in the popular animated movie "The Lion King." Ironically this is actually a denial of death i.e. an attempt to make it less than it really is. In reality, death is a travesty we weren't originally designed for.

Suffering as well is ²not normal, it's simply common - and commonly shared. ³Everyone is in pain to various degrees, from the least privileged to the most. This is comforting in an odd way because we know we are not alone in our suffering. As the saying goes, misery loves company. But it also allows us to brush it aside as a normal part of life, when it's not. We tell ourselves to stop whining and having a pity party (or questioning struggles) because everyone goes through pain.

Even those who experience the best circumstances - and least trauma in life - are in pain at some level. The difference is some are able to arrange their world/circumstances well enough to dull the pain better than others. And those that do should be the happiest among us, but usually are not - outside those who know God and His infinite love.

The truth is those blessed enough to be sorounded with enough gifts ("toys" - creature comforts) to distract themselves from ⁴internal pain, is not that common. It is the exception, not the rule. Few of us are wealthy enough or gifted with enough natural talents to arrange our circumstances so we can completely avoid pain. Plus those that have the most creature comforts are privately still in ⁴pain. The high rate of substance abuse, other addictions and even suicide among the wealthiest are all indications. No matter how good or challenging our circumstances ⁵no one is pain free.

The good news is Christ understands pain better than any of us and embraced our pain so that we might not have to.

For a further discussion of why God allows evil to continue click here.

For a further discussion of how God uses pain for our good click here...and here.

The greater the evil the greater the opportunity for healing/grace click here.

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¹If our mom's environment or even her emotional state was sufficiently troubled before we were born we no doubt picked up and experienced some of her pain and it transfered to us.

²We were not designed for pain but for infinite love and joy because we were created like God who is infinite love and joy. To participate in who He is we must be like him. Our problem is we reject him and therefore are absent what we were created for and need most, causing us on-going pain. Those of us who accept God's offer to be restored to him will one day be completely free of pain. That offer is extended to any who will receive it.

³I'm referring primarily to emotional pain -  though we all experience various physical ailments, discomforts, disease and eventually death - the ultimate physical pain.

⁴What is the essence of this emotional pain? It is feeling worthless, unimportant, insignificant etc. We were created for glory, not insignificance.

There is much talk about trauma in modern psychology but little talk of our critically compromised spiritual condition that allows trauma to take root and effect us in the first place. 

Trauma is not just from painful events we experience but the overall state we are in e.g. we are all inclined to go about life with little to no thought about God. As a result we are not in the close relationship with Him we were created for i.e. we are alienated from Him. To be alienated from the Source of life and love - i.e. our Creator - is to be in a traumatized and vulnerable state. 

When we are connected to the Source of life - as we were meant to be - painful events (invasive violations of our being and sense of worth) do not traumatize us. To use an analogy, a pathogen cannot take hold in us when our immune system is strong. What makes up a strong spiritual immune system? When we have a strong sense of value, meaning, purpose etc. because of our union with the Infinite Source of love and value. The stronger our union, the stronger our spiritual immune system and the less trauma (pathogens) take root and effect us. 

⁵Yet we still attempt to derive comfort (reduce pain) in having it better than others.

3 levels of trust

When we trust others, that trust is on 3 different levels.

1. Do we trust their heart i.e. Do we believe and know someone is acting with good and loving intent toward us and others.

2. Do we trust their judgment i.e. Do we believe and know they have the best understanding and wisdom when it comes to how they handle decisions, challenges, and circumstances i.e. will they make the right decision.

3. Do we trust their ability i.e. Do we believe someone can fulfill the promises they make or responsibilities they are given or have regarding us or others.

For us to have complete trust in someone we must trust them in all 3 areas. 

This is not just true of our attitude towards other fellow creatures but also and especially towards God our Creator.  

How do these apply to God? How is He trustworthy? 

1. Heart. Is God good and loving? 

The greatest evidence of love is when someone sacrifices something they value most for another's benefit. 

The Father gave us the Son of His eternal affection and delight and the Son set aside his ¹glory and perfect union with the Father of His delight. 

They did so that our selfishness and failures would not be held against us so we might be fully restored to the Father's infinite love and share in it along with the Son in the same way as the Son. 

The Father and Son gave up what they valued most (unobstructed blissful union with each other) so we might participate in that union of perfect glory and joy. 

2. Judgement/wisdom. By definition, God must be everywhere present, all-knowing and all-wise...and He is. Therefore only He knows the best possible outcome to any and all given situations. 

Because He is also love, he always chooses the best possible outcome in every situation. Infinite love coupled with infinite knowledge and wisdom assures this.

 

3. Ability...  Is He able to bring His love and wisdom to full fruition? 

As Creator and sustainer of all things, nothing exists (is) without God. He even uses evil - caused by our distrust of Him - for good. Evil did not and does not have the last word, God does. Nothing can thwart God from carrying out his perfect, all-wise, and loving will, not even our sin. 

*For a futher discussion on God using evil for good click here. 

*For a fuller understanding of the significance of Christ setting aside his glory for our benefit click here.

 

To get the shot or not

Some within the Christian community have encouraged others to take the vaccine (John Piper, who I otherwise respect - and others - would be high-profile examples). Their reasoning? It is the loving (unselfish) thing to do i.e. it is loving our neighbor.

However, the question isn't whether we should love our neighbor or not but how can we best do so. The answer is not as black-and-white as we might think or have been led to believe. There are several parts to this.

To be an expert in one area does not make one an expert in all areas. Pastors and theologians, like any other area of discipline, are generally trained and gifted in their respective fields of expertise but few of them are doctors or medical experts. We should all be careful therefore in advising people on medical decisions or areas outside our field of training. 

That's not to say they should never give advice outside of their training as long as they've done their due diligence in that area. However, I would not go to a pastor to fix my car or plumbing or ask where to invest my money unless he had expertise in those areas. The medical field is far more involved than cars, plumbing, and investments.

Because technical fields are so numerous and specialized most of us depend on experts in other fields. Unfortunately, even experts are not beyond the influence of those with less than noble intentions, where money is more important than serving our fellow man. There is a strong indication that strategic members of the medical community are influenced by an agenda. The advice given by some at the top appears to be heavily influenced by money more than hard scientific evidence. Many doctors or heads running these agencies appear to have greater loyalty to the pharmaceutical corporations than to science or the patient.

Most are also not aware of the extent of influence and control over media that "big money" has. This ensures that the narrative big money (I call them banksters) wants, is maintained, and factual information contrary to the narrative is suppressed. 

The breakdown of morality in culture is far more invasive than many recognize, resulting in many being swayed by personal gains or desires more than by the principle of loving our neighbors. Unfortunately many in positions of influence or power love mammon (money) more than truth or God (I'm not referring to anyone specifically).

If the vaccine was effective and there was no other way to address this bug then the vaccine would be the loving course to take. However, as time has gone on it has proven to have minimal benefits and ¹substantial (sometimes ²deadly) side effects. Certainly enough to cause us to legitimately pause and ask questions. To be pressured to make such a decision as taking an experimental procedure is unloving at best. More and more information is coming out that the vaccine is not the best option and could also be ¹extremely harmful.

To mandate it also violates our freedom to address our health according to our conscience and responsibility as good stewards of the body God has given us. Especially if there are other equally (if not more) effective and proven treatments.

If the vaccine resulted in harm to you or me, impairing our ability to love our neighbor, not aid it, this is not wise or loving. The greater the harm the less I am able to love and serve others i.e. it would result in the opposite of loving my neighbor. 

The irony is the left side of the political aisle used to argue hardest for the right to choose what we put in us or have done to us and still do, but selectively.

The good news is there are other options (strengthening our immune system, herd immunity, various therapeutic or holistic treatments). But for some reason, these options - and those mentioning them - are either being suppressed, hidden (censored), or vilified.

Why is there such a huge effort made to discredit or hide these other options? The deliberate effort to suppress discussion or discredit information should alone give us pause as to why. To expect us to blindly accept the advice of those who have proven either to be wrong or outright misleading (not Piper but so-called medical experts) is not prudent or loving others well. 

It behooves us to do our due diligence when making such a significant decision or advising others to do so. As the saying goes haste (created by a supposed emergency which in turn creates fear) makes waste. On the coattails of fear deception often rides. The whole push for a vaccine is rooted in fear. Fear is rarely the soil out of which wise choices grow. In this case, what's at stake is far more significant than waste. 

It is becoming increasingly clear our health and possibly our very life - and that of our loved ones - are at stake. No wonder passions run so high on both sides and why sadly this has been such a divisive issue. 

For an excellent panel discussion between highly respected doctors (some highly published - and some have been vaccinated i.e. they are not "anti-vax") who are on the front lines of patient care and treatment, click here.

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*A significant number of ADRs (adverse drug reactions) is listed on the WHO site.

http://www.vigiaccess.org/

To search VigiBase data go to the bottom of the page and check the box, then search for “covid-19 vaccine”

To see the VAERS (Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System) COVID Vaccine Adverse Event Reports 

Go to 

https://openvaers.com/covid-data or the main page at https://openvaers.com/openvaers

**  For an article on a study of the vaccine's effects on unborn infants click here 

A conversation regarding obedience

In Nov. of 2017 I posted the following on Facebook. 

"Why do we pursue God, out of love or fear? 

Both! 

Out of love because he first loved us. 

Out of fear because operating contrary to God's design (how and why he made us) always has an adverse effect (if not immediately, eventually)."

This resulted in an instructive conversation between Rick (a FB friend) and I. I am posting that conversation below to illustrate the misunderstanding, tension, and confusion around our pursuit of (obedience to) God in the hope of clarifying some of the dynamics of that pursuit.

Now to Rick's response and the conversation that followed:

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Rick: 

You mean you aren't a Christian Hedonist? :/ I'm not either :)

Other valid reasons to seek God...

God exists and is the source of all meaning, purpose, and value. Without God, there would be none of these in an objective sense.

God is the ultimate authority over all creation and deserves our utmost obedience to his will, his pleasure and his purpose.

God is the ultimate worth and he is worthy of our praise and worship. Our surrender to God's will is the first step towards truly worshipping God.

Jim: (In response, I sent Rick the following blog post on the dynamics of what moves us to pursue and obey God)

http://thotsaboutgod.blogspot.com/2017/02/an-anatomy-of-motivation.html

Rick quotes from the above blog article adding his comments below...

Rick: 

"An anatomy of motivation - There are two overall but opposite approaches we observe in scripture regarding our motivation to obedience. All underlying forms of motivation fall under these two. These two broader areas are...

· positive motivation
· negative motivation"

His added comments...

- These two categories of motivation are based on the idea that we can expect something good or we can expect something bad. Another option that I believe is important is to acknowledge the authority of God as a basis of motive. In this respect, it is not so much what we personally expect but who God objectively is that forms the basis. If we believe God exists, we can obey God simply because of God's authority, without even contemplating what we personally expect. For example. We are commanded to submit to God and obey God. I can do this simply because God has clearly commanded it and not necessarily for any other reason. Do you agree?

Jim:

Yes, but I believe there's a bit more to obedience than simple willpower. If you haven't read the rest of the article at the above link it hints at this. 

Paul also points out it is God who enables us to choose and desire to pursue him in vs 13 of the following: 

"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." Php 2:12-13

How does he do so? By appealing to self-interest. For example, we are told in Heb 11:6 "And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him." The appeal of this verse is not just that God exists but OUR (us/self) being rewarded. 

Another example is "to gain your life you must lose it." What's the appeal? Us gaining life. The verse simply tells us the best way that happens is by losing our life i.e. we don't find our life by seeking life but by seeking God who is life. 

There is a difference between self-interest and self-ISHNESS. Not distinguishing these causes confusion. Several posts on my blog touch on this. If interested let me know.

Rick: 

Those are interesting verses and I would not be opposed to reading your articles. Because there are so many scriptural aspects of obedience to God, to me this implies that there are many valid motives that can overlap and are not mutually exclusive. I believe that there is a danger of taking a verse like Heb 11:6 and suggesting that this one verse codifies our approach towards obedience to God. For example, there is the motive of love of God that Jesus stated was a valid motive:

"If you love me, keep my commands." John 14:16

The word love is from the Greek "agape" which is translated as a self-less benevolent and giving type of love. So in other words, our motive for obedience based on this verse is not self-interest but is based on pleasing God.

Jim:

Love is THE key motive to obedience. So the question becomes how and when do we love God i.e. what is the cause of (stirs up) our love for him. Scripture clearly teaches our love (the key motive "behind" obedience) is a RESPONSE to his love for us. 1 Jn 4:10 "In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins." In 1Jn 4:19 John goes on to say, "We love because he first loved us." We are not the initiators of love, God is.

This is also implied in John 15. It says without me "you can do nothing..." (vs 5) i.e. we can not bear fruit on our own. Fruit in the context is loving God and others (vs 12,17). So our loving God and others is based on and caused by our abiding in his love for us (vs 9). We can not love as God loves - i.e. sacrificially - otherwise. To say it another way, we are not the cause or source of love but the conduits of it.

Re: the Hebrews passage...it is simply an example, not a proof text. Self-interest is implied throughout scripture. His great offer is eternal life to us i.e. our eternal life. Even fear of the consequences for disobedience is the fear of US suffering. We do nothing apart from self-interest. 

Christ's very appeal to loving our neighbor is love for ourselves "...love your neighbor AS you love yourself..." He doesn't condemn our love of self (our desiring what is best for ourselves) he assumes it and makes his appeal based on that assumption.

The issue isn't our wanting what is best for us, it's how is that best accomplished. Through self-effort or in and by God i.e. through his love for us. 

I think the issue is we don't realize our greatest joy is IN God and recognizing the greatness of his glory i.e. our greatest joy (pleasure) and God's highest glory are not in opposition to each other but tied together. To say it another way, pursuing God and his highest glory IS our greatest joy (pleasure).

Rick: 

Jim Deal - "Self-interest is implied throughout scripture. His great offer is eternal life for US i.e. OUR eternal life." ...Christ's very appeal to loving our neighbor is love for ourselves "...love your neighbor AS you love yourself..." He doesn't condemn our love of self (our desiring what is best for us)

I'm sorry, but implications of our self-interest are always subservient to the interest of pleasing God in the whole of scripture, and plainly commanded as such, and to place our self-interest on equal grounds with pleasing God I believe is shown to be actually heretical based on traditional interpretations.

To take your first point, eternal life is epitomized by relationship together with God: "Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." (John 17:3) And relationship is defined as "being one" in the spirit: "I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one" (John 17:22) --- These verses do not imply that eternal life is based on focusing on the self or that the motive for eternal life is self-interest, rather, the focus is on interrelationship and unity for the glory of God, that is, mainly for GOD'S sake, not our own.

In your second point, you reference the second part of a two-part command and left out the most important first command: Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[a] 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] There is no commandment greater than these.” (Mark 12:30-31)

Matthew Henry clarifies the primacy of scriptural value:

"As we must, therefore, love God BETTER THAN ourselves, because he is Jehovah, a being infinitely better than we are, and must love him with all our heart, because he is one Lord, and there is no other like him; so we must love our neighbor AS OURSELVES, because he is of the same nature with ourselves;" (emphasis added). Here is Matthew Henry's full commentary on this verse:

2. That the second great commandment is, to love our neighbor as ourselves (v. 31), as truly and sincerely as we love ourselves, and in the same instances, and we must show it by doing as we would be done by. As we must therefore love God better than ourselves, because he is Jehovah, a being infinitely better than we are, and must love him with all our heart, because he is one Lord, and there is no other like him; so we must love our neighbour as ourselves, because he is of the same nature with ourselves; our hearts are fashioned alike, and my neighbour and myself are of one body, of one society, that of the world of mankind; and if a fellow-Christian, and of the same sacred society, the obligation is the stronger. Hath not one God created us? Mal. 2:10. Has not one Christ redeemed us?"

If we try to ignore or deny a direct commandment, that clearly states pleasing God (with others-centered agape love) is the highest commandment, and offer that self-interest is on par with or even above the command to please God, how is this not patently heterical?

"our greatest joy (pleasure) and God's highest glory are not in opposition to each other but tied together."

This is basically a toned-down re-phrasing of Piper's maxim. However, the phrase "God is not most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in him" is misleading because the true measure of God's glory is not our personal satisfaction. The highest measure of God's glory is our conformity with God's nature and will, which is most emphasized by conforming to God's nature and will, which is based on agape love and holiness.

Scripture advocates worshipping God in spirit and in truth:

"God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” (John 4:24).

Piper completely discounts many critical aspects of worship, such as affirming and meditating on truth, and heretically demands that the worship of God is based on emotions as an end in and of themselves:

"It can be done only when spontaneous affections arise in the heart. And these affections for God are an end in themselves. They are the essence of eternal worship" (p92 DG)

Jim, I am reading a brief but excellent new book on Piper titled "Christian Hedonism? A biblical examination of John Piper's teaching" by ES Williams, and I believe that it might help you to glean from his research some of the many critical scriptural errors of CH.

Jim:

Rick W Thanks for the feedback.

I don't disagree with anything you said.

Everything must be subservient to God simply because he is the cause of all things (i.e. a more than sufficient reason if there were no other one) "... For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen..." (Rom 11:36)

Nothing in scripture (regarding our obedience) is based on FOCUSING on self.

It sounds like you are equating self-interest with selfishness and that our interests are ABOVE Gods. I've said neither.

What I am saying is our (self's) best interest is IN God. God is our (self's) best interest.

My point is in order for us (self) to know and enjoy God, "self" is not set aside but fully engaged. We (us, self) give God the greatest glory when we (self) find him our greatest joy, treasure, pursuit etc. This isn't putting self above God at all. It is self delighting IN God above all things, vs self delighting in created things over and above God the Creator (our delighting in creation above God is the essence of self ISHNESS. It is seeking to make life work WITHOUT God i.e. through what I can obtain by myself and solely for myself. It is seeking meaning, purpose, joy, etc independent of God for my glory, not his).

However our (self) finding God to be more glorious than anything else "shows him off" (brings attention to his infinite glory, i.e. glorifies him). To believe and then act as if something is more valuable than God, dishonors him. When we find God our greatest delight and pursuit we are telling others, God is more important to me than anything else and therefore could be to you as well.

Regarding the greatest commandment, this actually underscores the point I am seeking to make. Loving our neighbor flows out of loving God first (which is the fruit of his love for us). It all starts with God, is through God and is for God i.e. for his glory e.g. Rom 11:36 

End of our FB conversation. 

In this conversation, we are dealing with very nuanced points. Facebook is generally not the best place for in-depth discussion and contemplation of such things. I say this because after looking this over there are things I did not address that I could have. Therefore I offer these additional thoughts.

Regarding obedience to God out of fear i.e. respect for God, even this is based on "self-interest" i.e. I wish to honor God out of respect for him and because he is worthy of all honor/respect but why do I respect Him?  Because he is all-wise, all-powerful, and just and I don't want something bad happening to me (self) if I don't honor him as such. This isn't selfish. It is rooted in our very being as God's image-bearer. Our being a creature who desires our own best interest is actually necessary in order for us to be able to enjoy and honor God who is most high and most delightful. 

For more on this point click here. 

Rick said, "I'm sorry, but implications of our self-interest are always subservient to the interest of pleasing God in the whole of scripture, and plainly commanded as such, and to place our self-interest on equal grounds with pleasing God I believe is shown to be actually heretical based on traditional interpretations."

This is a common misunderstanding and is hardest to grasp. God's highest glory and our greatest joy are not in competition or opposed to each other or that we can only do one or the other. So there are no "equal grounds." They are tied together but not equal because everything must start with God. Nothing happens if God were not all glorious. However, our greatest joy is God's highest glory. The more we exalt him - recognize His glory - the more we experience Him as He is and the greater our joy becomes. Joy is the result of recognizing and acting upon God's greatness - His infinite glory. We find him to be our greatest joy when we lift him up (glorify him) as the highest/greatest (most delightful) being of all beings or things and the only one worthy of our honor and greatest delight. This is not an "either/or" scenario. God's glory and our delight in God go hand in hand but in that order. It always must start with God, not us. If God were not the greatest of all beings, we would not and could not find the great joy that is God himself. And we are wired this way because this is how God designed us, so we might share in His glory as He does as Father and Son in by and through the Spirit. To enjoy God most we have to be most like Him without being God i.e. we are in His image.

Rick said:

Another option that I believe is important is to acknowledge the authority of God as a basis of motive. In this respect, it is not so much what we personally expect but who God objectively is that forms the basis. If we believe God exists, we can obey God simply because of God's authority, without even contemplating what we personally expect. For example. We are commanded to submit to God and obey God. I can do this simply because God has clearly commanded it and not necessarily for any other reason. Do you agree?"

Whether Rick deliberately intends to, the implication of what he is proposing is we have within ourselves the spiritual strength to obey God by simply willing ourselves to do so without God empowering us i.e. apart from his Love/Spirit. This is placing our will as the key (central) to obedience instead of God. However, God is the driving force behind our obedience, not our will. It is God who works in us "...both to will and to work for his good pleasure." Our will is an intricate part of obedience but it is not the central part, God is. Our will is vital in deciding (choosing) to believe God is who He claims to be and does (did and will do) what He promises/claims He will do. But this is choosing to believe is anchored into who God is generally and who He is for us specifically. It is based on faith in the character of God,  not faith based on faith in itself or how great our will is.

For a further discussion on this point click here.

The following verses clearly show the will and desire to obey God come from God, not us. Yes, it is our desires but desires that God "works" in and through us by revealing to us His great glory. 

Philippians 2:12-13 English Standard Version (ESV) 

12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Though we are in God's image which allows us (gives us the capacity) to honor and enjoy God, absent God's Spirit/Love we are dead to God. We are not the source/cause/initiators of sacrificial love. Only God is. We can only love sacrificially when we know God loves us sacrificially and "has our back" i.e. God honors and rewards us and all our actions when done for his honor.

For more discussions on obedience click here.  

For more discussion on how our worth is tied to God's click here.